US HDEO's with ACEA A3/B4 approvals

[dlundblad]

Why don't we have more of these in the US?

Seems to be a pretty normal thing for our members in Europe and Australia. Heck, I read in a recent thread where our Australian members have a Castrol 5w30 A3/B4 too. A3/B4's in general seem to be a bit more average outside of the US, whereas here, they are mainly marketed as European oils.

I am not sure if my wording makes sense to everyone, and this is all just food for thought, but perhaps our typical 10w30 and 15w40 HDEO's from Shell, XOM, Chevron etc. are "good enough" to carry the ACEA approvals, but the EPA, CAFE, US marketing, and whatever else limits them to only being marketed as a duel rated API oil?

The floor is open for discussion.
My flak vest is on.

 

[Solarent]

A3/B4 is not a heavy duty engine oil specification. in Europe, there are two types of diesel oils - the heavy duty ones carry the E designation like E6, E7, E9 etc.

The additives used and testing cycles for passenger car diesel oils (ie A3/B4) and heavy duty diesel oils are very different. And in North America there aren't many passenger car or light duty diesel trucks - so it doesn't make a lot of sense to make your HDDEO which is designed for heavy duty use also meet light duty specifications.

That said some low viscosity HDDEO's probably could meet the passenger car diesel specifications.

 

[supercity]

I don't know of any majors pushing a dual rated A3/B4 and E4 or E7 type product now, they did use to be available though. Some of the smaller blenders still offer these lubes but Id say they are more "recommended for" products trying to cater for people that just want to use one oil in everything.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
A3/B4 is not a heavy duty engine oil specification. in Europe, there are two types of diesel oils - the heavy duty ones carry the E designation like E6, E7, E9 etc.


I used that as an example because apparently 15w40 A3/B4's exist in non US countries.

Very interesting about the E6 etc. designations. Ill have to do some reading on the topic.

 

[Garak]

Actually, here in Canada, we do get Castrol 5w30 A3/B4.

In any case, the point about the E6, E7, E9 specifications is the real answer to your question. The big name HDEOs already tend to be E7, E9, with some of the newer 5w30 examples being E6, E7, E9. You can't have E6, E7, E9 or E7, E9 in conjunction with A3/B4; among other things, there tend to be different SA limits. In fact, the ACEA E specs take the CJ-4 specification (well, that will change of course as specs evolve) and add various things to it. The oil companies are well served by having the API spec and tossing the API E specs and builder approvals on top of that. The Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 I use is E7, E9, along with CJ-4/SM and a pile of builder approvals.

I would wager that the comparative lack of A3/B4 type oils here is basically the result of what we normally see specified in North America. Very few vehicles here specify an A3/B4 type lube, and those that do are usually calling for various OEM specs, too. The oil companies are best served in North America by having their high end A3/B4 lubricants on the shelves here. For more "generic" lubes, we have that niche filled with the various SN/GF-5 products. Look how many SN/GF-5 5w30 examples Shell alone sells on one set of shelves.

 

[dlundblad]

Thanks for the reply. Sorry I am just now seeing this.

I took a look at an older quart of Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck and IIRC, it carries the E9 spec.

 

[Garak]

A lot of the HDEOs will have E7, E9 on them. The Delvac 1 I'm using has it, and the Delvac 1 LE 5w30 will be E6, E7, E9.

 

[chrisri]

ACEA passenger car specifications and HDEOs are mutually exclusive. You have to understand that HD diesels have VERY long OCI, much longer than American counterparts, 100k km is the norm here for OTR trucks.
I'm using E6 oil in a four Dpf passenger cars /light vans without problems -for now.

 

[4wd]

Looked at spec sheet on your Delvac 1 ...nice. You thinking PAO and GIII mixed ?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
Looked at spec sheet on your Delvac 1 ...nice. You thinking PAO and GIII mixed ?

The one I have is predominantly PAO. The new spec sheet isn't nearly as impressive, and methinks the works have been cheapened with the CK-4 rollout, given how much the product seems to have been overbuilt in the first place. Pour point has gone up a lot and flashpoint has dropped considerably. Oh well, all good things must come to an end.

 

[SR5]

I always thought that North America (NA) has a good selection of HDEO's while Australia (Oz) had a good selection of Euro A3/B4 oils. They are both high TBN and high HTHS oils, but they still have their differences, as pointed out above.

For myself in Oz, my local Auto store pretty much only sells mineral 15W40 HDEO in API CI-4Plus. None of these great 10W30 or 5W40 HDEO CJ-4 synthetic oils that you get in NA. I'm sure they are around, just not at my local stores. We also don't get some of the great monogrades that you get, I would love access to a SAE30 that was API SN. My Penrite monograde is SG.

But we do get a great selection of Euro Grade A3/B4 oil, apart from the regular 0W40 from M1/Edge/SynPower we get:
- Shell Helix Ultra 5W40 (GTL)
- Shell Helix HX8 5W30 (SN & A3/B4), Group 3 full synthetic
- Shell Helix HX7 10W40 (SN, A3/B4, MB 229.3, VW 502/505) semi-synthetic
- Castrol Edge 5W30 (SL high zinc & A3/B5) full synthetic
- Castrol Magnatec 5W30 (SN & A3/B4) full synthetic
- Castrol Magnatec 10W30 (SN & A3/B4) semi-synthetic
- Castrol Magnatec 10W40 (SN & A3/B4) semi-synthetic
- Castrol GTX and Shell HX5 15W40 (SN & A3/B3) mineral
- Valvoline SynPower 5W40 HST ( high SAPS A3/B4)
- Valvoline SynPower 10W50 HST (high SAPS A3/B4)
- etc

These are all easily found, and right now the Magnatec 10W40 is on sale at $20 for 5L, while the GTX 15W40 A3/B3 is $18. Which are great local prices in Oz.

But you guys in NA, get much more advanced HDEO's, much better selection of monogrades, and the fantastic Mobil 1 High Mileage oils which are not imported into Australia.

When in Rome, do as the Romans. Here in Oz I use A3/B4 oils, if I moved to NA I would use HDEO's or Mobil 1 High Mileage. Neither is better, just different.

 

[Garak]

Agreed. In North America, an A3/B4 would be more than sufficient for most diesels on the road, particularly older ones out of warranty if someone's worried about specs. After all, the HTHS is there, and the SA is at older HDEO standards, and even older HDEO specs may appear on the jug. As Joe said in the other thread, you don't want to oversell. Here, a lot of people look for an HDEO, particularly in this province, especially one that isn't terribly fancy or expensive. So, they're not going to grab Castrol 0w30 A3/B4 at the single quart price. That being said, you don't want to have GTX 15w40 being A3/B4 with builder approvals to cannibalise your premium sales. When you buy an A3/B4 here, it's a top tier product from an oil company.

 

[chrisri]

I'm sure you can find ACEA specified HDEOs at the dealerships and truck/bus part stores. You can't find them at the car part stores, but that is understandable, you can't find propshaft for a MB Actros either in there.

Car parts cater general motorist market. Commercial vehicle aftermarket is different, mostly catering companies and businesses.

 

[UG_Passat]

API CF oils can be found with ACEA A3/B4 oils.