Ferrari voted against the chicane being added to turn 13. They were the only team to do so. Minardi and Jordan (the 2 other Bridgestone runners)voted for, but Ferrari and the FIA wouldn't hear it. Sure Michelin brought a bad spec this weekend, but not allowing a chicane or the alternate Michelins that were flown in from France to be used put the nail in the coffin and allowed this insult to take place. Ferrari is such an arroagant organization, that I don't think they really regret today. To allow this to happen in the US market is still blowing my mind. I still can't believe that they could allow this to happen. #$@%!
US Formula 1 Starts with Six Cars!!!!
- Thread starter pscholte
- Start date
- Status
Ron - dude I don't want to argue with you....but there never should have been a vote, IMHO. It's competition. I would have done the same as Ferrari....maybe it's an Italian thing
So because 1 team, in this case Ferrari, wouldnt agree to a last minute change it is then their fault that the race was allowed to occur in the first place? Im just saying that I dont think the FIA handled it correctly, but I also dont think 1 single party is to blame in this case. Of course Minardi and Jordan are gonna vote for the change. Both of those teams suck beyond all hope. Ferrari stands to lose something from the situation. I dont blame them.
It wasnt up to Ferrari to be the deciding vote in this case anyways. Even if they had said they wanted the chicane put in it would have needed the approval of the FIA. And it was denied by the FIA.
Ferrari didn't even attend the meeting and so they didn't even vote. Don't blame Ferrari, blame the FIA and Michelin. It really is a Pi&%$&*$ contest between the FIA and the Management groups which make up F1. This will get worse before it gets better. The real losers in all this is the fans that attended the race and fans like me that watch it on TV. This is the worst day in Motorsports since Dale Sr. died
The ontrack racing has been so boring, the sport needs a shakeup and this might be the final insult that turns things around.
From what I have read tonight, there was NO chance of the FIA changing the rules to suit Michelin, and what Ferrari would or would not agree to is irrelevant. Blaming Ferrari for the problems of Michelin is exactly what the Michelin teams are trying to accomplish. Shifting blame is the oldest game in town.
F1 already has a rule that teams can change tires during the race if the tire is not performing for reasons other than normal wear e.g. puncture. The Michelin teams should have sent the cars out for 20 laps in the race and then changed tires on grounds of safety. All their teams already ran 10 or so laps on Saturday with ZERO tire problems after they increased the tire pressure as a result of Friday's failures.
The fans wanted to see 20 cars running flat out. If the race fell apart after 20 laps, well that often happens when it rains and the fans would be more accepting of getting a good 20 laps of racing. After pit stops, there would still be good racing but Ferrari would have been dominant - just like the last 5 years so what's the big deal? Frankly, the Bridgestone teams deserved an advantage. In fact, even with pit stops I think McLaren and Renault and Williams would have finished in positions 2 through 7 ahead of the pathetically slow Jordan.
Bottom line - Michelin might be on a fast track out of the sport after this debacle. They really disrespected the sport and especially the paying fans. Michelin need to give all the fans a full refund of their ticket price, and Tony George also needs to be compensated.
Apparently Bernie told all the team managers to go racing or else. Let's see what the "or else" is. Deduct points from the Michelin teams? It's odd to me that not a single Michelin team would go and race. Can you say "conspiracy"? Maybe there are contractual details that the individual teams were afraid of.
I'm not even sure if F1 will be back to Indy after this mess, and that's a d*mn shame. Who would blame Tony George if he told the FIA to take a long walk off a short plank.
Bottom line - there was a compromise to be reached and the participants stuck it to the fans.
From what I have read tonight, there was NO chance of the FIA changing the rules to suit Michelin, and what Ferrari would or would not agree to is irrelevant. Blaming Ferrari for the problems of Michelin is exactly what the Michelin teams are trying to accomplish. Shifting blame is the oldest game in town.
F1 already has a rule that teams can change tires during the race if the tire is not performing for reasons other than normal wear e.g. puncture. The Michelin teams should have sent the cars out for 20 laps in the race and then changed tires on grounds of safety. All their teams already ran 10 or so laps on Saturday with ZERO tire problems after they increased the tire pressure as a result of Friday's failures.
The fans wanted to see 20 cars running flat out. If the race fell apart after 20 laps, well that often happens when it rains and the fans would be more accepting of getting a good 20 laps of racing. After pit stops, there would still be good racing but Ferrari would have been dominant - just like the last 5 years so what's the big deal? Frankly, the Bridgestone teams deserved an advantage. In fact, even with pit stops I think McLaren and Renault and Williams would have finished in positions 2 through 7 ahead of the pathetically slow Jordan.
Bottom line - Michelin might be on a fast track out of the sport after this debacle. They really disrespected the sport and especially the paying fans. Michelin need to give all the fans a full refund of their ticket price, and Tony George also needs to be compensated.
Apparently Bernie told all the team managers to go racing or else. Let's see what the "or else" is. Deduct points from the Michelin teams? It's odd to me that not a single Michelin team would go and race. Can you say "conspiracy"? Maybe there are contractual details that the individual teams were afraid of.
I'm not even sure if F1 will be back to Indy after this mess, and that's a d*mn shame. Who would blame Tony George if he told the FIA to take a long walk off a short plank.
Bottom line - there was a compromise to be reached and the participants stuck it to the fans.
Keith,
The Michelin runners could not have switched to the alternate tire that was overnighted from France after a few laps. The tire suppliers have to declare a hard and soft compound spec prior to the race weekend and this alternate spec obviously wasn't included in the mix. This is horrible publicity for Michelin, but least they have the integrity to not put the driver's lives at risk. Michelin did not disrespect the sport, they did everything they could to try to get the drivers on safe tires and the FIA nixed it and allowed this debacle to occur.
The Michelin runners could not have switched to the alternate tire that was overnighted from France after a few laps. The tire suppliers have to declare a hard and soft compound spec prior to the race weekend and this alternate spec obviously wasn't included in the mix. This is horrible publicity for Michelin, but least they have the integrity to not put the driver's lives at risk. Michelin did not disrespect the sport, they did everything they could to try to get the drivers on safe tires and the FIA nixed it and allowed this debacle to occur.
For this reason, I have stopped watching F1 and concentrated on watching the crazy driving of WRC.
The leader in WRC is Sebastian Loeb driving a Citroen Xsara and the car is shod with "special" Michelin gravel tires that suit his neat driving style.
I have come to suspect the rest of the cars with Michelins are not of the same formulation as Loeb's looking at the times they clock.
The leader in WRC is Sebastian Loeb driving a Citroen Xsara and the car is shod with "special" Michelin gravel tires that suit his neat driving style.
I have come to suspect the rest of the cars with Michelins are not of the same formulation as Loeb's looking at the times they clock.
From what I have read, the backup tire that they had there on Friday also could not take the vertical G loads. Any tires that arrived after that were illegal per FIA rules. Tire manufacturers are not allowed to run track tests on Friday and then ship in a new improved tire on Saturday or Sunday LOL. Michelin know the rules and wanted to break them, the FIA said get no. The legal tires were working fine on Saturday at increased pressures (from what I have read).
Like I said, there were avenues for compromise, entirely within current rules, that would have given the fans a race and applied a self imposed penalty for Michelin. Adding an extra chicane on Sunday morning was about as likely as running the race on Mars. The FIA's job is to apply the rules, and as unpopular as it was today, they did their job.
At the end of the day, if this is the atomic event that blows up the status quo and a better sport emerges, it won't have been a total loss.
I'm still waiting for slick tires, wider cars, reduced aero and increased mechanical grip and longer braking distances and positively NO traction control. Then we can get back to exciting racing with - gasp - an occasional overtaking move. Every race can't be a dice like Arnoux / Villeneuve at Dijon 1979, but it's sad when you only get one or two significant passes per season.
Keith, When there are 150000 fans in the stands and tens of millions at home expecting a race, I think you better bend the rules. Michelin had a anomalous tire issue that that could have been deadly. Allowing a chicane or alternate tire and then penalizing the Michelin runners or pushing the Bridgestone runners up the grid, would have been a minor irritant and at least the fans would have got a show. Thanks to Ferrari and the FIA we got this slap in the face. When the fans are in their seats, you have to get beyond bureaucratic ridgidity.
I still don't get the "thanks to Ferrari" bit. Oh well.
Every team voted to boycott the race unless a chicane was built at turn 13 except one...Ferrari. Had Ferrari gone along with this, it would have forced the FIA's hand and there would have been a race. Ferrari also nixed the possibilty of the Michelin teams running a new tire spec and being ineligible for points. This would have at least given the fans a show. The only suggestion the FIA had for the Michelin teams was to "slow down" on turn 13 which is absurd. Ferrari is not totally to blame and believe me I understand self interest, but they could have contributed something to stop this debacle from occuring.
Six cars is not a race its more like practice. The track should have postponed the race or given the fans their money back on the spot.
See if I got this right. If the track was changed slightly... (one turn) to slow them down. They would have ran. That is not a tire problem. That is an air pressure problem its as simple as that.
A racing tire must have adequate air pressure for.... THE HIGHEST LOADING (G FORCE) CORNER on a track. Many things in racing is a compromise but this rule cannot be compromised.
A tire problem is unsafe in any corner on the track. Sounds more like some teams got greedy on air pressure paid the price. Then blamed every one else but them selfs for their setup problems.
Than all parties involved proceeded to make a mountain out of a mole hill. FIA showed no leadership in this matter at all. They were not just content to shoot them selfs in the foot. More like they had to gut shoot them selfs into a slow painful death in the US market.
See if I got this right. If the track was changed slightly... (one turn) to slow them down. They would have ran. That is not a tire problem. That is an air pressure problem its as simple as that.
A racing tire must have adequate air pressure for.... THE HIGHEST LOADING (G FORCE) CORNER on a track. Many things in racing is a compromise but this rule cannot be compromised.
A tire problem is unsafe in any corner on the track. Sounds more like some teams got greedy on air pressure paid the price. Then blamed every one else but them selfs for their setup problems.
Than all parties involved proceeded to make a mountain out of a mole hill. FIA showed no leadership in this matter at all. They were not just content to shoot them selfs in the foot. More like they had to gut shoot them selfs into a slow painful death in the US market.
This might come as a shock, but Ferrari do not set the rules. This is what is posted on F1-live.com:
*************
Asked under what circumstances he would you have been willing to race with the Michelin runners, Todt said “I would say three options. One, they could have changed their tyres. [BINGO!] Two, they would have to compromise in this specific corner. And three, they could have used the pit lane. If these cars cannot take this corner, what can I do? You would have had a race.”
*************
There could have been a good race if Michelin teams changed tires during the race. A solution entirely within the rules. The Michelin tires were fine at higher pressure on Saturday. But I guess shifting blame from Michelin to Ferrari is more fun
I guarantee you, if Ferrari had agreed to the chicane and refused to race without it (and they would not have done that so its academic) the FIA would have cancelled the race. Maybe that would have been better than the farcical race they had, but that's not what is being discussed.
More from F1-Live.com:
*************
Continuing to explain his position, Todt pointed out that “number one, it’s an FIA decision. Number two, if something happened on the other side; if, for example, we don’t have enough grip for qualifying and we ask for three laps because we have good grip after the third lap, or if we ask for a chicane because we feel it would be safer for our tyres, I think everybody would laugh at us. So you just have to be prepared to react to a situation.
*************
I can't wait to see the aftermath of this. Bernie always gets his pound of flesh.
EDIT - I forgot to mention, on Dave Despain's show on SpeedChannel last night they had David Hobbs as a phone in quest. He suggested docking Michelin teams all their championship points for the season to date. I wonder if he got that idea from Bernie.
[ June 20, 2005, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: keith ]
Keith, The Michelin teams could not have used the Tire spec flown in from France. That is fiction. The arrogant Jean Todt can ramble on about "fairness" all he likes, but because of Ferrari, we had a six car slap in the face yesterday. No race would have been better than that. Were they any kind of men, they would have recogonized that running their cars around they track was a huge insult and forced the FIA's hand. Its not Ferrari's fault that Michelin brought faulty tires, but they could have played a huge role in averting this disaster.
I loathe and despise Ferrari, but the Indy debacle is simply not their fault - they were prepared to race.
The blame is squarely upon Michelin and to a lesser extent, Toyota, if they were underpressurizing (sp?) their tires.
Formula One is finished in the United States. No one in their right mind would take the risk of promoting an F1 race or travelling across country to see one after this.
The blame is squarely upon Michelin and to a lesser extent, Toyota, if they were underpressurizing (sp?) their tires.
Formula One is finished in the United States. No one in their right mind would take the risk of promoting an F1 race or travelling across country to see one after this.
This is by michelin:
We screwed up
By Phil Huff - June 20 2005
Michelin's Motorsport Director, Pierre Dupasquier, spoke about the tyre fiasco at Indianapolis, revealing that the French manufacturer had 'screwed up'.
Speaking to Autosport-Atlas, Dupasquier explained why Michelin weren't able to provide a tyre suitable for the Indianapolis circuit.
"We screwed up," Dupasquier told Autosport.
With suspicion that Michelin may have been pushing the performance envelope slightly too far, Dupasquier was quick to dispel that theory. "No, no, no. It's nothing to do with that. On the contrary, since we have to last for the entire race, we kept huge margins."
Despite the widespread condemnation following the event in the United States, Dupasquier feels that Michelin have come out of the situation well, commenting "Anything we heard so far was more on the side of 'congratulations for the responsibility, you made the right decision' and so on.
"We are sorry about it, we regret what happened. We had no choice but assuming responsibility and taking no chance with the race and with the drivers."
>>
We screwed up
By Phil Huff - June 20 2005
Michelin's Motorsport Director, Pierre Dupasquier, spoke about the tyre fiasco at Indianapolis, revealing that the French manufacturer had 'screwed up'.
Speaking to Autosport-Atlas, Dupasquier explained why Michelin weren't able to provide a tyre suitable for the Indianapolis circuit.
"We screwed up," Dupasquier told Autosport.
With suspicion that Michelin may have been pushing the performance envelope slightly too far, Dupasquier was quick to dispel that theory. "No, no, no. It's nothing to do with that. On the contrary, since we have to last for the entire race, we kept huge margins."
Despite the widespread condemnation following the event in the United States, Dupasquier feels that Michelin have come out of the situation well, commenting "Anything we heard so far was more on the side of 'congratulations for the responsibility, you made the right decision' and so on.
"We are sorry about it, we regret what happened. We had no choice but assuming responsibility and taking no chance with the race and with the drivers."
>>
So what is your point? Do you feel that because Michelin screwed up, the Eurocrats were justified in allowing this sham to occur? Michelin didn't feel it was safe for the drivers to be pushing through turn 13 at 320kph. What is the alternative? No one in their right mind can say that what occured yesterday was justified or fair for anyone.
My point is that you shouldn't blame ferrari for this fiasco.When ferrari was facing problems with bridgestone , being the only top team using their tires , what did the others do?
They tried to impose a 30 day testing period for all the seasson knowning that bridgestone would have 1 top team x 100 laps(example) for testing whereas michelin would have 5 top teams x 100 =500 laps for testing....
[ June 20, 2005, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: yannis ]
They tried to impose a 30 day testing period for all the seasson knowning that bridgestone would have 1 top team x 100 laps(example) for testing whereas michelin would have 5 top teams x 100 =500 laps for testing....
[ June 20, 2005, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: yannis ]
I dont think anyone is trying to say that it was justified or fair. However, the blame for the whole situation lies in Michelin's court. They were the ones that were unable to provide an adequate tire, not the FIA or Ferrari or Bridgestone. They didnt feel THEIR tire was safe for those running THEIR tires around turn 13. Either way you want to believe it none of this would have happened had Michelin had their act together. However, it could have been handled differently by the FIA.
I also believe there is a difference if the situation had been brought on by an uncontrollable source, such as weather. The '05 Indy GP and the '03 brazillian GP are 2 different scenarios altogether. One was a weather induced situation, and the other is a lack of preparation. You have no control over weather, but when you have plenty of time to prepare for a track that has been raced before the sole resposibility lies on the tire manufacturer to provide adequate equipment. Michelin also admitted that their backup tire would not have been satifactory either, so that throws out any argument that had they been given more time (a delayed race start) they would have been ready to race.
I also believe there is a difference if the situation had been brought on by an uncontrollable source, such as weather. The '05 Indy GP and the '03 brazillian GP are 2 different scenarios altogether. One was a weather induced situation, and the other is a lack of preparation. You have no control over weather, but when you have plenty of time to prepare for a track that has been raced before the sole resposibility lies on the tire manufacturer to provide adequate equipment. Michelin also admitted that their backup tire would not have been satifactory either, so that throws out any argument that had they been given more time (a delayed race start) they would have been ready to race.
- Status
Similar threads
