Upper cylinder lubricant which best brand?

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At one time decades ago there was probably some benefit to them but those days are long gone. Back in those days every mechanic that did engine work had a ridge reamer, we don't see that very often if at all today. Metallurgy and engine oils are superior to those days making many of the aftermarket additives obsolete.
This was popular in the UK many years ago next to many gas pumps 2 shots per 10 gal from what I read. Today it is not needed and a collectors item. Snake oils and additives are a multi billion dollar business and stores dedicate a large amount of floor space for them, they are a profit maker albeit mostly useless products.


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I suppose you could say almost everything sold in a bottle that is discussed on this forum beyond 30wt dino oil isn't "necessary", are they? Not a single person "needs" synthetic oil, how many of you spend twice as much or more for it? Can you quantify how much longer it makes anything last? Not remotely. Your 1 example of a thing lasting forever or dying instantly is not meaningful.

What is being lubricated? Anything the fuel touches. Gas sold today is garbage. A hint of oil in there is not going to hurt anything, and it stands to reason it could help many things. Fuel pumps, injectors, valves, cylinders. Can you quantify that? Nope. Never.

The can I keep full of 2 stroke mix is dirty and covered in grease/oil. My other straight fuel cans are not like this. Because gasoline with even a tiny amount of oil leaves the oil behind when it evaporates, thus giving everything it touches a light coat of oil. Not a bad thing. Especially good on old things and small engines.
 
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In 2 cars I owned,98 Corolla and 98 less bee marvel mystery oil at one point set off a p0420 code..it was basically getting on the Dow stream 02 sensor.stopped using marvel code never came back.it lubricated engine very well though.Lucas quiets engine down. I use valvoline tcw3. Small bottle.without it,ill average 237 miles to near empty tank.Lucas ill average 241 miles.tcw3/.247-254 miles before on E. So the tcw3 does work.used it in 98 Corolla too.gained miles with it.
1 1/2 oz per 5 gallons.18 gallon tank I use 6 ozs.
Miss the Marvel though..exhaust smelled minty
 
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I used deadpan too. 95 neon,98 corolla.did absolutely nothing for my mileage.never bothered with other canned stuff..found tcw3 only gave me mileage.that must mean, piston tops **** near clean!
 

OVERKILL

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I suppose you could say almost everything sold in a bottle that is discussed on this forum beyond 30wt dino oil isn't "necessary", are they? Not a single person "needs" synthetic oil, how many of you spend twice as much or more for it? Can you quantify how much longer it makes anything last? Not remotely. Your 1 example of a thing lasting forever or dying instantly is not meaningful.
Many of the OEM approvals mandate either directly, or indirectly (through performance requirements) that the oil be synthetic. They also of course explicitly tell you not to use additives in the owner's manual, lol.

Many of these approvals are quite demanding and require extensive standardized testing to obtain proof of performance. Ergo, various performance metrics are easily qualified through this testing.

The purported efficacy of UCL's could be tested for, in a standardized manner, as well.
 
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Many of the OEM approvals mandate either directly, or indirectly (through performance requirements) that the oil be synthetic. They also of course explicitly tell you not to use additives in the owner's manual, lol.
And this is entirely determined by accountants and lawyers, not mechanics and engineers. Manufacturers tell you to do many things that are not in your best interest. What about all those sealed automatic transmissions they have now? Absurd.

If you ran an engine that "requires" synthetic with regular oil and then changed back again nobody could possibly ever see the difference. We can all agree it is better, but exactly how much, when, and where, is nearly impossible to quantify in any meaningful way. This is why it's been an internet argument as long as there has been internet. You would have to dyno test thousands of samples in controlled conditions that even the manufacturer can barely simulate.

They have to write things like that in manuals because some moron will buy a new Toyota and try to put some straight 30 from Walmart in there. Or type F transmission fluid. Some people think their electric car needs an oil change! And it is true that many additives are bad and can even cause damage, we also know there are good additives...and every manufacturer has their own bottle of secret sauce they sell for too much at the dealership. You can't just let the general public decide things like this on their own, it's 2022.
 
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The only time a UCL is really needed is when you're using E98 or methanol. The lack of lubricity and high amount of fuel wash with alcohol makes it difficult to lubricate the top ring which is where a UCL comes in. E85 doesn't really have this issue as the 15% gasoline acts as a UCL. E10 and E0 definitely doesn't have this issue. Adding top lube to gasoline isn't going to do much of anything.
 

RaRa

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The only time a UCL is really needed is when you're using E98 or methanol. The lack of lubricity and high amount of fuel wash with alcohol makes it difficult to lubricate the top ring which is where a UCL comes in. E85 doesn't really have this issue as the 15% gasoline acts as a UCL. E10 and E0 definitely doesn't have this issue. Adding top lube to gasoline isn't going to do much of anything.
I agree ucl is not needed for everyday to day drive I am doing intake valve cleaning using crc intake valve cleaner . It good have upper cylinder lubricant I have decided to go with Rislone upper cylinder lubricant also pea I get 32 oz 5.90 and msds same cas no Amsoil upper cylinder lubricant so probably same base oil just different additive.
 

OVERKILL

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And this is entirely determined by accountants and lawyers, not mechanics and engineers. Manufacturers tell you to do many things that are not in your best interest. What about all those sealed automatic transmissions they have now? Absurd.
The accountants certainly play a role in the single grade requirement (CAFE), but engineers most definitely play a significant role in determining the tests and their parameters that define the approvals.
If you ran an engine that "requires" synthetic with regular oil and then changed back again nobody could possibly ever see the difference. We can all agree it is better, but exactly how much, when, and where, is nearly impossible to quantify in any meaningful way.
It's easy to qualify, that's why the controlled tests exist. Porsche A40 and C30 for example, part of the approval is simulated lapping of the Nurburgring race track for an extended duration. This is followed by a tear-down with measurements. Ergo, it qualifies the oil's performance under those conditions.

As these approvals have become more and more strict, like even Dexos, for the non-Euro stuff, conventional oils have simply been unable to meet the performance requirements. They can't pass the oxidation limits, they can't provide low enough volatility...etc. While there have been some base oil breakthroughs, like XOM's EHC Group II+ bases, ultimately the deficiencies with conventional bases are easy to qualify.

"For life" transmission fluid is more about the optics of low maintenance costs to attract buyers. We aren't seeing that with oils. What we are seeing is engines that are becoming more and more complex and manufacturers simultaneously trying to get better and better fuel economy out of them.
This is why it's been an internet argument as long as there has been internet. You would have to dyno test thousands of samples in controlled conditions that even the manufacturer can barely simulate.
But that's exactly what even the basic API approval sequences do. For the more stringent approvals, additional tests are added, limits are made more strict...etc. Even then, sometimes the API approvals just aren't enough with certain engine designs that are prone to creating issues, such as the Toyota engines with inadequate oil drainback holes in the oil control ring lands and Honda's VCM V6, which tends to both stick the rings as well as carbon/varnish up the one head.

This is becoming more and more important now that everything is DI with a turbo on it and much harder on oil than the port-injected naturally aspirated mills of the past with far lower power density.
They have to write things like that in manuals because some moron will buy a new Toyota and try to put some straight 30 from Walmart in there.
That's true. But they also have to stipulate people used an approved lubricant because somebody with an M3 might put 5W-30 conventional in it and then go hooning and pop a rod through the side of the block.

"Back in the day" there was a sludge epidemic with VW's because dealers were using "regular" Castrol Syntec 5W-30, not the Euro extended drain 5W-30 that was stipulated in the manual with the VW approval. There's a difference, one that becomes very apparent when you are running the manufacturer-mandated drain intervals.

Anyways, to bring this back to UCL's, it would be quite easy for their performance to be qualified via standardized testing. This is not being done could be as simple as nobody as bothered, but it may also suggest that somebody did test and the results weren't going to be great advertising (IE, it did nothing, or next to nothing).
 
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You are nit picking about things that are in the last .0001% of performance. Things that matter to a manufacturer making millions of products, not something you can determine by testing one or even ten or a hundred samples at the track and tearing them down. Again, this is not a meaningful sample size. You need to test THOUSANDS of identical engines, even more thousands of dyno pulls. You could not do this test on a track in the outdoors, FAR too many variables. It would have to be an indoor fully climate controlled dyno.

Then there are people that think their home test is 1000.00000% accurate because they wrote something down and took a picture and they can determine MPG to the 10th of a mile. The truth is they cannot, anybody that thinks this way is delusional. One single result of anything means nothing.

You are also nit picking about the word "need". Again, everything the MFG looks at when determining what fluids to use and for how long is a balance of what THEY decide is best for you. I'm not as dumb as the average braindead consumer, therefore, I can make that decision for myself, and since I know my use case better than they do, I can probably make a better choice. Their idea of what is "best" and my idea are two very different things.

I don't "need" leathers seats either. Nobody does! (I'm sure somebody will still try to argue this point) But I'm not poor and I like nice things, so I have leather seats. I feel no need to defend them to anybody.

Any argument you might make against a UCL can equally be made for the UCL because neither party has any data to share. There is NO DATA here whatsoever regarding UCL. Only unsubstantiated opinions on both sides.
 

OVERKILL

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You are nit picking about things that are in the last .0001% of performance.
Are we just making up numbers now to justify our already established position at this point?
Things that matter to a manufacturer making millions of products, not something you can determine by testing one or even ten or a hundred samples at the track and tearing them down. Again, this is not a meaningful sample size. You need to test THOUSANDS of identical engines, even more thousands of dyno pulls. You could not do this test on a track in the outdoors, FAR too many variables. It would have to be an indoor fully climate controlled dyno.
Again, these are controlled tests performed by the manufacturers, where did you get the idea that somebody would be doing the testing themselves?
Then there are people that think their home test is 1000.00000% accurate because they wrote something down and took a picture and they can determine MPG to the 10th of a mile. The truth is they cannot, anybody that thinks this way is delusional. One single result of anything means nothing.
While an exciting detour, where was this ever mentioned?
You are also nit picking about the word "need". Again, everything the MFG looks at when determining what fluids to use and for how long is a balance of what THEY decide is best for you. I'm not as dumb as the average braindead consumer, therefore, I can make that decision for myself, and since I know my use case better than they do, I can probably make a better choice. Their idea of what is "best" and my idea are two very different things.
The manufacturer sets a floor for the minimum level of performance required by the lubricant for their application. This varies. Different engines present different challenges as, do the anticipated operation profiles. Regardless of the volume of word salad you choose to generate, that doesn't change the technical aspects of this.
Any argument you might make against a UCL can equally be made for the UCL because neither party has any data to share. There is NO DATA here whatsoever regarding UCL. Only unsubstantiated opinions on both sides.
So we are just manufacturing strawmen so we can punch them down at this juncture? I said standardized testing could be developed for UCL's. That's a fact, it could be. That would provide the necessary data. I'm not making an argument for or against UCL's, though I don't use them. I do think it is interesting that no standardized testing has been developed however.
 
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Please do explain how 15% crappy dry gasoline is a lubricant?

Gasoline has good lubricity compared to alcohol but it's in the additives. Also, the fuel volume, while being 30-35% more than gasoline, isn't so much as to wash the cylinder walls. (cold starts and warm up being the exception) Some studies have actually found that gasoline-ethanol blends, with a good detergent package, produces less upper cylinder wear and a lower friction coefficient with E85 compared to E15, E10, or E0.

 

Shel_B

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Gasoline has zero lubricity. Again what you are trying to say is you don't NEED it, but also you cannot prove it's better not to have it. Nobody ever said you "need" a UCL.

Overkill - you're not even bothering to read or understand what I wrote, your response doesn't make any sense, I don't have time for nonsense like this. Obviously you are the type that would argue with a wooden post, every forum has a few of you. Your argument is not any more correct than anybody else, even though you consider yourself so incredibly brilliant.

Nobody needs an UCL. Nobody is going to be hurt by an UCL. Some engines can in fact benefit from extra oil. Nobody can provide ANY data that says otherwise. The end.
Pretty strong words. Did you read the article @RDY4WAR linked in his post?
In case you missed it (I almost overlooked it) I'll post the link again. You made no mention of it, so I'll assume you missed it somehow. Here it is in a big, bold font ... you seem to like that style:

https://www.mannol.de/file/repository/Essay_EN.PDF

You said that nobody can provide any data that says otherwise. The title of the article is Lubricity of gasoline and alcohol-gasoline fuel blends.

The very first sentence says, "The fuel pump and some components of the injection system of internal combustion engines are lubricated with the fuel itself."

The article goes on from there. It appears that there may be some data that "says otherwise."
 

Shel_B

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Oh jesus, somebody said something on the interwebs, it MUST BE A FACT!!! I stand by my statements. You have ZERO proof of anything said in this thread. Neither side. (I can provide links that show the queen of england is a lizard and the president eats children, so...)

Even if you had data on one specific fuel or engine, and you do not, nobody asked about that specific thing, this was a question about engines in general. Nobody likes people who pick nits.
Some quick questions, my friend.

Did you read the paper linked above?
What in the paper do you disagree with?
Where did you get the information that helped form your opinion?
Can you - will you - provide links or pointers to some of that information?

Thanks! Maybe we can learn something from you?
 

Shel_B

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What needs to be lubricated in the upper cylinder? If there is something won't the regular oil do it? Doesn't MMO burn off in the combustion chamber, and won't it leave deposits? I've never understood the need to add oil like has been described here.
 
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Cylinders wear tapered..valve seats and stems get little if any lube..no lead anymore..I keep my stuff as long as I can..ask the wife..

Yea..hardened seats..supposed to solve valve wear..okay..valve stems get what..maybe some lube if the intake seals leak some..and exhaust gets what..none. If one has the means to replace their stuff often okay.. I like to get 15 years or more outa my autos. They are not an investment unless using for business...and then ya need to keep expenses down so..

What is one afraid of using some lube in the fuel..never got that..

Keep in mind folx who make their living selling have to sell and will adjust their words to make sales. They are good word craftsmens
and can sell. Us on the otherside need to keep our money from sales people. So I keep my stuff as long as I can as to not give my money away when not necessary. Upper lube helps me do just that.
 
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So how do you know they haven't removed it completely to save costs or avoid shortages? If PEA is the big selling point you'd think they would keep it in the label
Kinda like when Castrol got off the hook using PAO and swapped to a technically inferior base Group 3 and everything was hunky dory?
 
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