Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives

[MolaKule]

UCL Definition:

IF one defines a UCL as a fuel injector lubricant, then that seems to be valid.

But then again, one has to realize the Materials Science and metallurgy that goes into injector part materials, valve seats, and valves, etc. is very advanced, compared to the 50's and 60's.

So, can the injector nozzles, valves, and valve seats survive without UCL's?

It seems that even the old technology parts survived before the advent of these so-called specialty lubricants.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
When I used Gumout All In One for the PEA, I was unaware that it had the UCL / friction modifier.

I did notice the car was smoother, and that this lasted for a couple more tanks. My wife noticed it too.

Now the manufacturer does say not to use UCL so I will follow their instructions going forward as I presume they have looked at this far more completely and figured that any potential gains (if any) are outweighed by known and unknown risks.

Of course, UCLs must do something otherwise people wouldn't buy them. For some, that something is in their heads, but I would guess that some smoothness does occur for some people.


Was it the PEA that made the engine run smoother or was it the UCL?

I maintain it was the PEA that increased combustion efficiency through better fuel atomization.

 

[demarpaint]

I achieved a smoother running engine in older cars with a UCL, the two I used contained no PEA, MMO and TCW3. TCW3 producing better results when it came to making an engine run smoother. In fact I skipped a few tankfuls and added RL FI cleaner and the engine idled the same as it did before the UCL. Switching back to the UCL the idle improved again. I guess it depends a lot on the age and condition of the engine. I would expect to see little to no improvement in a new well running engine.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: TrevorS
When I used Gumout All In One for the PEA, I was unaware that it had the UCL / friction modifier.

I did notice the car was smoother, and that this lasted for a couple more tanks. My wife noticed it too.

Now the manufacturer does say not to use UCL so I will follow their instructions going forward as I presume they have looked at this far more completely and figured that any potential gains (if any) are outweighed by known and unknown risks.

Of course, UCLs must do something otherwise people wouldn't buy them. For some, that something is in their heads, but I would guess that some smoothness does occur for some people.


Was it the PEA that made the engine run smoother or was it the UCL?

I maintain it was the PEA that increased combustion efficiency through better fuel atomization.


So Molekule are you saying that PEA helps fuel atomize? And is that the same as reducing the surface tension of the fuel?
And Molekule do you know at what treat rate PEA is effective at helping fuel atomize and at what point is it fuel over treated or is that possible?

Thanks Molekule.

 

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: TrevorS
When I used Gumout All In One for the PEA, I was unaware that it had the UCL / friction modifier.

I did notice the car was smoother, and that this lasted for a couple more tanks. My wife noticed it too.

Now the manufacturer does say not to use UCL so I will follow their instructions going forward as I presume they have looked at this far more completely and figured that any potential gains (if any) are outweighed by known and unknown risks.

Of course, UCLs must do something otherwise people wouldn't buy them. For some, that something is in their heads, but I would guess that some smoothness does occur for some people.


Was it the PEA that made the engine run smoother or was it the UCL?

I maintain it was the PEA that increased combustion efficiency through better fuel atomization.


I wondered the same thing, and in balance I would say it was the UCL.

The reason being that I had already cleaned out the fuel system and switched to top tier and this addition of Gumout All In One was an annual preventative. Previously I could feel the vehicle improvement during the course of a tank. This time, the improvement that I ascribe to PEA happened during the first quarter tank or so and then the smoothness continued for a few tankful a before tailing off. I'd find it hard to believe the tailing off of smoothness was the fuel system gunking up again, although the Techron engineers did establish deposits build surprisingly fast.

 

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: TrevorS
When I used Gumout All In One for the PEA, I was unaware that it had the UCL / friction modifier.

I did notice the car was smoother, and that this lasted for a couple more tanks. My wife noticed it too.

Now the manufacturer does say not to use UCL so I will follow their instructions going forward as I presume they have looked at this far more completely and figured that any potential gains (if any) are outweighed by known and unknown risks.

Of course, UCLs must do something otherwise people wouldn't buy them. For some, that something is in their heads, but I would guess that some smoothness does occur for some people.


Was it the PEA that made the engine run smoother or was it the UCL?

I maintain it was the PEA that increased combustion efficiency through better fuel atomization.


So Molekule are you saying that PEA helps fuel atomize? And is that the same as reducing the surface tension of the fuel?
And Molekule do you know at what treat rate PEA is effective at helping fuel atomize and at what point is it fuel over treated or is that possible?

Thanks Molekule.


I think he is saying that PEA cleans injectors which helps fuel atomize better.

The PEA treat rates are in the Techron white paper. They found that above a certain dosage, PEA had no further effect. The treat rate and mileage intervals on Techron and other PEA cleaners are based on actual scientific testing. These companies want the product to work optimally for you. Now some vehicles don't build up deposits like others, with or without top tier fuel. But in their testing they found deposits build in as little as 3000 miles regardless of age of car.

 

[nleksan]

I agree with the above as to what I read Molakul's statement to mean.

As for RL being ethical, I would say that in the rather cutthroatworld of engi ne products, if they are producing a product superior to the competition but with the same basic level chemistry behind it, and the other guys get to add "UCL" as a bullet point, RL would be stupid not to advertise the same thing. In fact, I welcome it, as the more people who buy it for a psychological benefit (UCL), the cheaper and more available it becomes for the rest of us who want to use it for what it is actually the best at...

I admire a number of companies for their transparency and honesty, Redline, StopTech, Performance Friction, etc, and I have made purchasing decisions based on the appearance of the company in tthe past when I was split otherwise. That's why you will never see me running aftermarket Brembo brakes, and instead see ST/PFC/AP Racing. It's why I am willing to support Redline as much as I do, or any one of a hundred other examples.
But, at the end of the day, they'reall bbusinesses, and it's in the best interest of no one but the dishonest, opaque companies for them to go out of business. We as customers lose out big time.

 

[TrevorS]

I also like to support companies that are transparent. No time for people or organizations who want my money while hiding pertinent info.

I also don't understand where the attack on Redline as an unethical company came from. Totally uncalled for. I know others on this board have had a lot of success receiving information from them.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: nleksan
As for RL being ethical, I would say that in the rather cutthroatworld of engi ne products, if they are producing a product superior to the competition but with the same basic level chemistry behind it, and the other guys get to add "UCL" as a bullet point, RL would be stupid not to advertise the same thing.

Up here, with Red Line's product being priced better than Regane, I have no issue with that. Now, if they were really pushing the UCL thing and doubled the price of the product, I might have a concern. As it stands, advertising the UCL (real or imagined benefits) and having a good price make it an easy choice.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: nleksan
Probably because everyone else does, and they don't want to lose sales over semantics.


That could very well be, if so then they aren't the stellar ethical company I thought they were. Oh well.


I've used RL FI cleaner for years, and IMO it blows away the competition. Deep down inside I believe they're putting in the UCL because they believe it has some benefit, maybe a benefit in lubing injectors themselves as mentioned above. If it boosts sales more power to them. They've always been the most straight forward company out there when it came to answering questions, and they take the time to really answer questions. It seems some people missed where I was coming from with this comment, and struck a cord, sorry. Just to clear the air those comments were intended to be sarcastic, I should have used this.

Oh well. I've always commented positively about them and will continue to do so.

BTW nleksan, we seem to agree on some points.

 

[Mephy]

I use two stroke snowboard oil as UCL.

I believe the main benefit of UCL is the better fuel atomization.

 

[richport29]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: nleksan
As for RL being ethical, I would say that in the rather cutthroatworld of engi ne products, if they are producing a product superior to the competition but with the same basic level chemistry behind it, and the other guys get to add "UCL" as a bullet point, RL would be stupid not to advertise the same thing.

Up here, with Red Line's product being priced better than Regane, I have no issue with that. Now, if they were really pushing the UCL thing and doubled the price of the product, I might have a concern. As it stands, advertising the UCL (real or imagined benefits) and having a good price make it an easy choice.


Where do you buy the redline product in Canada?

 

[nleksan]

I completely missed the sarcasm, one of the dangers of the Internet!

I have generally agreed with you in pretty much every post I've read (I say generallyonly bbecause I can't think of any examples to the contrary, but I never was good at playing well with others so I am sure at some point I contradicted you just because I am always right and must make sure that everyone on the Internet is well aware of this! ).

I will see what my "contact" at the company has to say. One benefit of racing in moderately high profile series, even as an independent competitor, is that companies take note when you use their products religiously and the good ones, like Redline, go out of their way to help you out (even if you decline any help that would benefit you financially), offer advice and recommendations, and such.
But what really impresses me is that they are just as helpful to people who are not providing them free publicity, and will give straight, honest answers to anyone who asks! I have seen them even recommend that their products may not be ideal for a specific application, and to me, a company who is willing to lose a sale because they are not able to provide the best product for an application, is a company that has a customer for life; I judge mechanics thes ame way, and my engine/BMW mechanic and my body/paint guys both will always recommend against doing unnecessary work despite it costing them easy money.
THAT, is like finding a freaking unicorn in today's business world!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: nleksan
I completely missed the sarcasm, one of the dangers of the Internet!

I have generally agreed with you in pretty much every post I've read (I say generallyonly bbecause I can't think of any examples to the contrary, but I never was good at playing well with others so I am sure at some point I contradicted you just because I am always right and must make sure that everyone on the Internet is well aware of this! ).

I will see what my "contact" at the company has to say. One benefit of racing in moderately high profile series, even as an independent competitor, is that companies take note when you use their products religiously and the good ones, like Redline, go out of their way to help you out (even if you decline any help that would benefit you financially), offer advice and recommendations, and such.
But what really impresses me is that they are just as helpful to people who are not providing them free publicity, and will give straight, honest answers to anyone who asks! I have seen them even recommend that their products may not be ideal for a specific application, and to me, a company who is willing to lose a sale because they are not able to provide the best product for an application, is a company that has a customer for life; I judge mechanics thes ame way, and my engine/BMW mechanic and my body/paint guys both will always recommend against doing unnecessary work despite it costing them easy money.
THAT, is like finding a freaking unicorn in today's business world!

You nailed it, one of the dangers of the internet. Next time I'm being sarcastic, or kidding I'll try and make it more obvious. We have people here that feed off those types comments looking for a fight. I realized that later on when it was too late to edit or delete the post. Oops.......I'm glad it didn't go down that road.

I'd be interested in what your contact has to say. As far as ethics and oil goes RL is way up high on the list, way up!

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: richport29
Where do you buy the redline product in Canada?

There's an independent parts store here called Albert North Auto. That's where I get my Red Line fuel injector cleaner and Wix filters.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Now, if they were really pushing the UCL thing and doubled the price of the product, I might have a concern.

Can you please comment: is it safe to use PEA-type additives in the latest engines ?
What are the real concerns about purely UCL additives in the newer engine models?

 

[leroyd92]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
I hate to admit it, but I tried MMO in the gas in my 2003 Jaguar X-Type 2.5L V6. I was experiencing a rough idle and started thinking about poor valve sealing, sticky rings, balky injectors and so on. Considering that MMO has been known to help in such matters, I tried it. Success!

I added nearly a quart of the stuff to a 15 gallon tank. The engine was nearly instantly smooth. And, it clearly remains so many tanks later.

What happened? I really don't know. And, while I prefer scientific methodology and reasoning over "old wives tales", I can only speculate on the reasons why it worked. I will refrain from doing so.



Mmo was what got me into using additives in my fuel... ive never used it as an ucl but one of our trucks developed a pinging under load and it hand never done that before....

20gallons of gas, 32oz of mystery oil, and ten minutes of idle made her buttery smooth, no more pinging under a load, exhaust smelled like a candy factory, truck started easier then ever before, and for that tank, black soot would bellow out if you stepped on the go pedal...

No idea what it cleaned, had no intention to lube the cylinders, just wanted it to clean whatever broke free in the fuel system... and it worked.... that's why I use tcw3 in my gas...can't hurt

Sorry to go off on a speachel lol

 

[Garak]

I'd use PEA additives in new engines, no concern at all. Those are about the only ones I've seen recommended or approved by even a few automakers. I do use the Red Line and Regane in my G on occasion.

As for a pure UCL additive, the only concern I would have is what I believe Shannow mentioned in one of these threads - burning something that might not be all that friendly to cats. Additionally, are there enough benefits?

I haven't seen a lot of evidence for a significant benefit to a UCL for vehicle longevity, aside from certain niche applications. Something that still had valves from the unleaded gasoline days might benefit. Rotary engines burn oil by design. Running a tiny dose of two cycle oil in the gas as many do here is probably harmless, even to the cat. Is it going to significantly add to the lifespan of my engine? I'm not so sure.

Any pure UCL additives, also, should work as advertised, rather than being snake oil. There are too many companies like Lucas involved in that segment of the market.

If I decided I wanted to use a UCL, I'd just use Red Line SI-1 in maintenance doses.

 

[Triton_330]

Questions:
So, is MMO both a UCL and a cleaner?
If so, could one say that MMO is better than the lucas fuel additive?

I've used MMO in my gas before from time to time, because the only gas station in my hometown is Caseys... And let's just say that, even the good old guys down at O'reilly's will tell you that Caseys gas is (insert expletive word). I knew a guy whose check engine light would come on when he filled up at Casey's, but as soon as that tank was out, if he filled up at BP, the light went out and the truck ran noticeably better.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Questions:
So, is MMO both a UCL and a cleaner?
If so, could one say that MMO is better than the lucas fuel additive?

I've used MMO in my gas before from time to time, because the only gas station in my hometown is Caseys... And let's just say that, even the good old guys down at O'reilly's will tell you that Caseys gas is (insert expletive word). I knew a guy whose check engine light would come on when he filled up at Casey's, but as soon as that tank was out, if he filled up at BP, the light went out and the truck ran noticeably better.



Actually the Lucas upper cylinder lube contains pib,and pib will improve gas mileage by helping fuel burn more completely.
There's lots of info on pib and fuel efficiency,google should bring something up for you.
As far as the cats are concerned tc-w3 shouldn't affect them at all because it's ashless and leaves no residue behind,right?
I use tc-w3 in every fuel burning machine I own,including my zoomboom and everything I use it in runs better with it.
Probably subjective but for the pennies it costs to dose I'm gonna keep on keeping on.