UPDATE: More Management Changes At GM

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: rudolphna
Yes because their latest cars are all complete and utter [censored] too. Get real. Toyota, honda, subaru, Hyundai, when they all first came to the US their cars were TRULY AWFUL. At some point in their history, all car companies have made bad cars. GM isn't the only one.


+1

Some people apparently have very short memories. Or weren't alive when you could watch a Honda rust away right in front of your eyes. Those early imports were small, lightweight rust buckets that were barely safe to drive when new let alone when they got a few miles under their belt.

GM has work to do, and they know it. People who wish that hundreds of thousands of people should lose their jobs are just bitter angry fools IMO.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy

The latest highly regarded vehicle launches shows a positive change in the model lineup. Please give it time as GM is so messed up it will not self-correct overnight. Now the Upper Mgt is another thing - change is occuring there but I agree perhaps not exactly how I would like it.



The latest highly regarded vehicle launches were all green lighted and approved by the people that Whitacre has or is about to run out of town. I know you like Whiteacre, but I dont know why. Lutz should be in charge and the government twits that admit to not knowing anything about cars should be out of here.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

GM has work to do, and they know it. People who wish that hundreds of thousands of people should lose their jobs are just bitter angry fools IMO.


No People who KNOW how to run a business and even more FOLLOW the rules that other companies have too are the bitter ones.

GM is DEAD. Face it. It may not die today, this week or next month. But it WILL.

Sorry for the news. But its the "bitter angry fools" who buy the GM products and they are not going to.

If they played by the rules, there was a chance.

Now too late and too bad.

Look through this board. I WAS one of the biggest GM fans (love their trucks, some of their cars) and have owned MANY. But now that GM went to the devil and did their "bankruptcy" deals its over for LONGTIME CUSTOMERS.

I just bought a USED GM truck a few months ago. Love it. But I'll NEVER (and I'm not the only one trust me) buy a new one.

Call me bitter, call me angry, call me a fool. But I know what is right and wrong and what GM did is WRONG.

And they are showing what happens when you do the WRONG things.

Bill

 

[LS2JSTS]

LOL.....yeah, you're not bitter or angry at all. Your post is a clear and rational discussion of the facts as you see them, so be it. LOL

 

[Herz]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

GM has work to do, and they know it. People who wish that hundreds of thousands of people should lose their jobs are just bitter angry fools IMO.


No People who KNOW how to run a business and even more FOLLOW the rules that other companies have too are the bitter ones.

GM is DEAD. Face it. It may not die today, this week or next month. But it WILL.

Sorry for the news. But its the "bitter angry fools" who buy the GM products and they are not going to.

If they played by the rules, there was a chance.

Now too late and too bad.

Look through this board. I WAS one of the biggest GM fans (love their trucks, some of their cars) and have owned MANY. But now that GM went to the devil and did their "bankruptcy" deals its over for LONGTIME CUSTOMERS.

I just bought a USED GM truck a few months ago. Love it. But I'll NEVER (and I'm not the only one trust me) buy a new one.

Call me bitter, call me angry, call me a fool. But I know what is right and wrong and what GM did is WRONG.

And they are showing what happens when you do the WRONG things.

Bill







i couldnt have said it better

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Just moving the deck chairs around on a sinking ship.

Another American hoping a very important industrial company goes down?




The latest highly regarded vehicle launches shows a positive change in the model lineup. Please give it time as GM is so messed up it will not self-correct overnight. Now the Upper Mgt is another thing - change is occuring there but I agree perhaps not exactly how I would like it.

I'd love for GM to be eliminated because they built so many bad cars.

My ION was supposed to be as good as a Toyota Corolla, but it didn't turn out that way.

As far as I am concerned they are a bunch of theives and need to eliminated for that.

Plenty of Americans see it that way as well.


You are almost as rational as this guy....lol.

Oh, and btw....exactly how is GM responsible for the sham bankruptcy that the government pushed on them?

I am in complete agreement that the BK was a complete sham and was run more as if it were needed to protect the voters in the UAW than it was designed to save the company. I got shafted hard by the fraud of a BK that went down, but I blame that on the government and it's motives, not GM.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: defektes
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

GM has work to do, and they know it. People who wish that hundreds of thousands of people should lose their jobs are just bitter angry fools IMO.


No People who KNOW how to run a business and even more FOLLOW the rules that other companies have too are the bitter ones.

GM is DEAD. Face it. It may not die today, this week or next month. But it WILL.

Sorry for the news. But its the "bitter angry fools" who buy the GM products and they are not going to.

If they played by the rules, there was a chance.

Now too late and too bad.

Look through this board. I WAS one of the biggest GM fans (love their trucks, some of their cars) and have owned MANY. But now that GM went to the devil and did their "bankruptcy" deals its over for LONGTIME CUSTOMERS.

I just bought a USED GM truck a few months ago. Love it. But I'll NEVER (and I'm not the only one trust me) buy a new one.

Call me bitter, call me angry, call me a fool. But I know what is right and wrong and what GM did is WRONG.

And they are showing what happens when you do the WRONG things.

Bill







i couldnt have said it better


Doesn't surprise me at all....LOL

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


Oh, and btw....exactly how is GM responsible for the sham bankruptcy that the government pushed on them?


So GM did not go looking for money from you know who? They did not try to skirt ACTUAL business practices and go to the trough for feed?

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


I am in complete agreement that the BK was a complete sham and was run more as if it were needed to protect the voters in the UAW than it was designed to save the company. I got shafted hard by the fraud of a BK that went down, but I blame that on the government and it's motives, not GM.


We agree that the BK is a sham (like more of the dealings with the Devil) But GM was the one going to look for the poison.

And they found it. And took it.

They will (sadly) suffer the fallout. At least the lemmings know who to vote for next time...

Bill

 

[LS2JSTS]

GM went to get a loan, simple as that. GM hadn't caused the lending melt down and rarity of available cash that they faced. GM needed a loan and could of and would of payed it back. The government more than any other entity was responsible for the lack of commercial cash, so why shouldn't they make that reasonable loan? If the Government in it's infinite wisdom had just given them a loan along the lines of the Chrysler deal, then this whole thing would be a lot better right now.

When the government said no to the loan and they decided to give a loan based on their conditions, I agree GM took it. I think they should have walked at that point. The alternative unfortunately for them at that point in time was shutters and a fire sale, so they swallowed and took it.

My point was that GM didn't engineer that BK, GM didn't dictate those ridiculus terms. It was the government and their UAW minions. GM at that point was along for the ride, and many, many of them wished they had never gotten on that ride in the first place.

In essence all that our wise government managers have done is take GM through a sham BK and shed their bad debts and liability and make them a prime target for take over.

 

[Herz]

Its just the principle that they went to the government, imo Chrysler and GM are dead to me and alot of Americans.

My next domestic product will be a Ford(and I hate Ford's.) I have always been a longtime GM customer but will never give them another penny for a new vehicle.

They made a deal with the devil!

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: defektes
Its just the principle that they went to the government, imo Chrysler and GM are dead to me and alot of Americans.

My next domestic product will be a Ford(and I hate Ford's.) I have always been a longtime GM customer but will never give them another penny for a new vehicle.

They made a deal with the devil!


Understood and agree with you in principle. My original offense was when someone wishes that 400,000 should be out of a job because of the mistakes of a few. Just doesn't seem like a rationale fair response to the situation at hand.

For those who wish to speak with their dollars I say, no problem. This is what America was built on, freedom to choose. But that is a far cry from wishing pain and anguish on those who are just honest hard wroking people caught in the middle. What say you?

 

[Nick R]

Ok I'm getting sick of this. Someone explain to me where the government f'ed up that makes them "the devil" we could live in a completely communistic society, we could have a dictatorship, or a monarchy... You should be glad! Good god. Seriously, who else were GM and chrysler going to go to, huh? Everyone here automatically assumes that the government is going to churn out cars like Soviet State-Owned companies did? The treasury has stated over and over that they WANT to get rid of the shares they hold in GM. They did it out of desperation, and because they could then oversee the restructuring. GM has proven that it wasn't taking it seriously, so someone who DOES take it seriously (IE the Govt) had to step in. (Note this was not meant to seem like a political post, it really isn't)

 

[Bill in Utah]

A few points;

Where do REAL companies get money? From loans or stock. If you have run your business to a point where no one will give you a loan or no one buys your stock due to no value then its time for re-structing. Don't go to the devil (I'll get to that soon enough) for terms that you never are going to get out of.

GM has about 250-275k employees world wide. Not 400k.

What is happening to GM AFTER the loans is proving the point why you don't go to the devil. And yes, I called them that because of the way the terms were dealt, the way they call the shots (they have NO CLUE how to run a business) and that they have NO BUSINESS giving OUR money to anyone. Esp a company (that would be GM) that can not get their own loans due to poor business practices.

IF GM went into BK, re wrote their contacts and showed everyone that they have a clue, then CUSTOMERS would be thinking about them next time they buy a car if what they are doing is sound.

Now all they are to most thinking CUSTOMERS is the brand to stay away from.

But thinking that the persons giving the loans to GM have a clue how to run a business is really a good one!

Thanks for that!

Bill

 

[wapacz]

What really gets me is where we would be if they hadn't got the money. First both companies would go chapter 7 laying off a huge amount of people. All factories, ip, and offices would be tied up in litigation for at least a few years. Now all these people that got laid off yeah they aren't going to be buying cars. This of course would crush the already squandering car market. Then add to that suppliers going under do to a extreme decrease in demand which was 50% below what it was last year to start with and the bills from the GM and Chrysler taking to get paid if they ever do. Go look at how much trouble Chrysler got in when one of there suppliers named Plastech went under. As a hint it almost by its self forced them into bankruptcy. Chances are the supplier network crashing would have taken Ford down with it. All of this would have pushed us over the edge in to a depression of a size that we haven't seen since the great depression.


By the way Ford benefited by GM and Chrysler living as it allowed them to live. I have no doubt ford would have went down if the other two did and this view is shared by people I know that work for ford.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
A few points;

Where do REAL companies get money? From loans or stock. If you have run your business to a point where no one will give you a loan or no one buys your stock due to no value then its time for re-structing. Don't go to the devil (I'll get to that soon enough) for terms that you never are going to get out of.

GM has about 250-275k employees world wide. Not 400k.

What is happening to GM AFTER the loans is proving the point why you don't go to the devil. And yes, I called them that because of the way the terms were dealt, the way they call the shots (they have NO CLUE how to run a business) and that they have NO BUSINESS giving OUR money to anyone. Esp a company (that would be GM) that can not get their own loans due to poor business practices.

IF GM went into BK, re wrote their contacts and showed everyone that they have a clue, then CUSTOMERS would be thinking about them next time they buy a car if what they are doing is sound.

Now all they are to most thinking CUSTOMERS is the brand to stay away from.

But thinking that the persons giving the loans to GM have a clue how to run a business is really a good one!

Thanks for that!

Bill


Why bother to reply if you only want to twist what my point is? Where did I ever state that the people giving the loans know how to run the business? It is in fact the exact opposite of my point, but thanks for playing.

I clearly said that GM would be better off without the government involvment. I said they dont have a clue, and they agree with me. Whitacre himself said so....lol.

"Real" companies all over the place are finding it impossible to find cash to borrow, in case you missed it there was/is a huge cash crunch with cash credit lines. Remember the other bail out, the one that cost you trillions? That crunch caused them not to have retail cash that was previously abundant and readily available dry up.

The funniest part of your post is the reference to GM's worldwide employment. When I say 400,000 I'm being so far conservative it isn't even funny. Yet you post their actual employee numbers as if that would be the number of people affected and out of work. 400,000 doesn't even begin to cover the actual numbers of people that would be out of work and facing this economy. It would likely be closer to a million. Heck, I know people at Ford that were scared to death that GM go under, they understand what it would have meant. You barely have a clue. The fact that you point that out to me as if I'm wrong or something exposes the depth to which you understand the auto industry. I was being conservative at the expense of splitting hairs on semantic arguments about numbers. Do you really think that only the employees of GM itself would be devastated here?.....That is laughable, to use your words, "thanks for that"

I know you have been around here a long time and garner a lot of respect. And like I said, buy what you want, it's your money. But please refrain from twisting my words to suit your anger while ignoring the complete meltdown of the financial markets and the economy that lead us here and calling it GM's "poor business practices".

 

[Herz]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: defektes
Its just the principle that they went to the government, imo Chrysler and GM are dead to me and alot of Americans.

My next domestic product will be a Ford(and I hate Ford's.) I have always been a longtime GM customer but will never give them another penny for a new vehicle.

They made a deal with the devil!


Understood and agree with you in principle. My original offense was when someone wishes that 400,000 should be out of a job because of the mistakes of a few. Just doesn't seem like a rationale fair response to the situation at hand.

For those who wish to speak with their dollars I say, no problem. This is what America was built on, freedom to choose. But that is a far cry from wishing pain and anguish on those who are just honest hard wroking people caught in the middle. What say you?


I wish no one to lose their job, not at all. I don't want to see any more americans lose thier job or any more american buissnes' dying. But when I say I wish GM would have died doesnt mean I wish ill or hard to those who hold a job with them. But things like this (should have anyway) happen with a free-market. the only thing I wish pain on is GM as a company and the government that allowed our money to be wasted on them.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: rudolphna
Yeah and now look, Nissan is doing great. And GMs new cars are great.



And Toyota truck frames are still rusting away....

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: GMBoy

The latest highly regarded vehicle launches shows a positive change in the model lineup. Please give it time as GM is so messed up it will not self-correct overnight. Now the Upper Mgt is another thing - change is occuring there but I agree perhaps not exactly how I would like it.



The latest highly regarded vehicle launches were all green lighted and approved by the people that Whitacre has or is about to run out of town. I know you like Whiteacre, but I dont know why. Lutz should be in charge and the government twits that admit to not knowing anything about cars should be out of here.



I only like Whitacre because he's all we got and I'm still watching him like a hawk. I'm with you that balls2thewall Lutz would have been a better choice.

 

[benjamming]

If GM had went the legal route, everyone would not have lost their job. Other company(ies) would have come in & started running plants to meet market demand. Would that have been painful? Of course. Who here is under the assumption that life is a bed of roses. Not punishing bad decisions that have been made is the worst mistake b/c it makes the punishment that will eventually come, worse, possible magnitudes worse.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
A few points;

Where do REAL companies get money? From loans or stock. If you have run your business to a point where no one will give you a loan or no one buys your stock due to no value then its time for re-structing. Don't go to the devil (I'll get to that soon enough) for terms that you never are going to get out of.

GM has about 250-275k employees world wide. Not 400k.

What is happening to GM AFTER the loans is proving the point why you don't go to the devil. And yes, I called them that because of the way the terms were dealt, the way they call the shots (they have NO CLUE how to run a business) and that they have NO BUSINESS giving OUR money to anyone. Esp a company (that would be GM) that can not get their own loans due to poor business practices.

IF GM went into BK, re wrote their contacts and showed everyone that they have a clue, then CUSTOMERS would be thinking about them next time they buy a car if what they are doing is sound.

Now all they are to most thinking CUSTOMERS is the brand to stay away from.

But thinking that the persons giving the loans to GM have a clue how to run a business is really a good one!

Thanks for that!

Bill


Why bother to reply if you only want to twist what my point is? Where did I ever state that the people giving the loans know how to run the business? It is in fact the exact opposite of my point, but thanks for playing.

I clearly said that GM would be better off without the government involvment. I said they dont have a clue, and they agree with me. Whitacre himself said so....lol.

"Real" companies all over the place are finding it impossible to find cash to borrow, in case you missed it there was/is a huge cash crunch with cash credit lines. Remember the other bail out, the one that cost you trillions? That crunch caused them not to have retail cash that was previously abundant and readily available dry up.

The funniest part of your post is the reference to GM's worldwide employment. When I say 400,000 I'm being so far conservative it isn't even funny. Yet you post their actual employee numbers as if that would be the number of people affected and out of work. 400,000 doesn't even begin to cover the actual numbers of people that would be out of work and facing this economy. It would likely be closer to a million. Heck, I know people at Ford that were scared to death that GM go under, they understand what it would have meant. You barely have a clue. The fact that you point that out to me as if I'm wrong or something exposes the depth to which you understand the auto industry. I was being conservative at the expense of splitting hairs on semantic arguments about numbers. Do you really think that only the employees of GM itself would be devastated here?.....That is laughable, to use your words, "thanks for that"

I know you have been around here a long time and garner a lot of respect. And like I said, buy what you want, it's your money. But please refrain from twisting my words to suit your anger while ignoring the complete meltdown of the financial markets and the economy that lead us here and calling it GM's "poor business practices".


First of all, READ the post RIGHT above mine and that could be who I'm referring to..

Don't think its all about you.

I'm done.