Up oil weight with high mile engines?

[50yr Street Mech]

Changed my mind. Stickin with the 0W20 and BG PN 115 additive as usual. If if ain't broke, don't fix it. 3K OCI's

 

[Carlostrece]

I just compared viscosity of 5w30 Valvoline EP FS to HM EP FS. The HM version has higher KV100 viscosity. In that comparison, the HM version is slightly thicker.

I also compared 5w30 Valvoline Advanced FS to Valvoline Maxlife FS. They have the same KV100 viscosity.

So apparently with some brands and oils (premium stuff) HM is a bit thicker viscosity at op temp. With (at least some) other oils the regular oil and regular HM have same viscosity at op temp.

I assume this is similar with other brands, but I'm too lazy to check more brands data sheets.

 

[Rygrego]

Yes, but high performance engines have more need of thicker oil. Daily drivers not as much, if driven normally. Also, I doubt that Ferrari, Porsche, or Lamborgini cares about gas mileage.

That is correct. These engines as with any can handle higher grade oils with no problems. They all, including standard run of the mill, can accommodate a wide range of oil grades with no adverse affects besides fuel economy (even though the fuel economy degradation will most likely be unable to be noticed without a lab running tests) . But back to reason for this post is yes a higher grade oil can and will be the easiest way to slow consumption short of re-ringing and a valve job.

 

[Carlostrece]

That is correct. These engines as with any can handle higher grade oils with no problems. They all, including standard run of the mill, can accommodate a wide range of oil grades with no adverse affects besides fuel economy (even though the fuel economy degradation will most likely be unable to be noticed without a lab running tests) . But back to reason for this post is yes a higher grade oil can and will be the easiest way to slow consumption short of re-ringing and a valve job.

I agree that going up 1 grade is an easy patch, but first I'd replacing PCV and possibly also crankcase breather hose and try VRP in normal grade for 1-2 oil change intervals. If it's still guzzling oil, then try VRP in next higher grade for 1-2 OCI.

But before doing anything else, I suggest inspecting underside of car for evidence of oil leaks in case it's leaking instead of burning. Sometimes leaks don't drip on ground enough to notice, but instead make a mess on underside of car.

It could be both leaking and burning. More than one thing can be true at the same time.

 

[george1122]

Mobil 1 ESP 0w-30. ESP is their Emissions System Protection line (mid-SAPS oils).

HPL is High Performance Lubricants, considered by many knowledgeable people to be the best oils you can buy at any price.

Recall what HPL typically goes for either 1 quart or a container of 5 quarts?

 

[SR5]

Interesting, I’ve used 15W-50 in my EA888 2.0 and noticed zero difference in acceleration nor oil temperature. The Audi 1.8 must be quite different. I did this to see how it affected oil consumption in the engine. I left it for the whole OCI so I did have some time with it in the engine.

I think it depends and I've posted this observation before. I had an Audi A4 1.8T Quattro from new in 1997 until 2005. It called for 10w-30. I used Mobl1 10w-30 after the warranty expired. For some reason I bumped that up to 15w-50 around June 2004 at about 135K miles. Big mistake - huge!

This car had an oil temperature guage; the oil temperature shot up 30-50 F on this thicker oil. Acceleration was sluggish as well. After a two day weekend running five hours per day I dumped that oil and went back to 10w-30.

My take away here is that you might consider bumping it up one grade but not two.

Like kschachn, I ran 15W50 in my 2.4L Audi for a full OCI without issue.

 

[Jetronic]

I think it depends and I've posted this observation before. I had an Audi A4 1.8T Quattro from new in 1997 until 2005. It called for 10w-30. I used Mobl1 10w-30 after the warranty expired. For some reason I bumped that up to 15w-50 around June 2004 at about 135K miles. Big mistake - huge!

This car had an oil temperature guage; the oil temperature shot up 30-50 F on this thicker oil. Acceleration was sluggish as well. After a two day weekend running five hours per day I dumped that oil and went back to 10w-30.

My take away here is that you might consider bumping it up one grade but not two.

My diesel called for 5W-30 C2 and I bumped it to Red Line 20W-50 and didn't feel a thing. Also had the best fuel consumption over that OCI.

 

[Jetronic]

You're correct about grade being the correct term, but does it really matter? We all know what he meant. BITOG is the only place I ever heard people correct others over it.

Yes we all know what is meant, but that doesn't mean the use of the correct terminology shouldn't be encouraged as a general principle. In another context, maybe there could be confusion about what is meant. like "left" and "other left".

 

[Jetronic]

To respond the question of higher viscosity in higher mileage engines:

You can’t really band-aid something wrong with thicker oil. If your bearing clearance is huge because they are worn drastically, the even 20w50 won’t fix that. Yes, you’ll have better oil pressure but you’ll still have very short life left because the roached surface finish of a bearing that badly worn would need more than a couple points more cSt to establish full hydrodynamic lube.

If an engine has made it to high mileage with little to no consumption, why not stick with that?

That’s kind of the catch-22 with going thicker on oil just because the engine is old. Either its old and in great shape, which suggest going thicker is unnecessary. Or it’s old and in rough shape, which cannot be helped by thicker oil.

If the bearings are roached, the time to go to thicker oil was years ago.

exactly, don't wait for clear signs.

 

[RDY4WAR]

You're correct about grade being the correct term, but does it really matter? We all know what he meant. BITOG is the only place I ever heard people correct others over it.

I correct people at times outside of BITOG. The issue I commonly see is people mistaking the "W" in a multi-grade to mean "weight" and thus want to say the first number is the oil's "weight." I see it almost daily in some car groups, especially older classic car groups, people thinking a 10W-30 is more viscous than a 5W-40 or 5W-50. You can't correct them on it either, no matter how polite you are about it. It'll fall on deaf ears.

Not long ago, someone asked on Facebook about what oil to use for his daily driver. Not one, but several people were telling him to use 10W-30 or 15W-40 diesel oil (BROtella), stating the OEM recommended MB 229.5 0W-40 was "way too thin."

So, it matters. A lot of bad information gets circulated because of colloquialisms.

 

[4WD]

https://www.valvolineglobal.com/en-eur/understanding-oil-weights/

https://blog.amsoil.com/should-i-run-multi-weight-or-straight-weight-oil-in-my-muscle-car/

 

[Hohn]

Recall what HPL typically goes for either 1 quart or a container of 5 quarts?

https://www.advlubrication.com/collections/passenger-car-lubricants

Use code BITOG15 to get a discount.

Roughly speaking the difference between the PCMO, PPCMO and PPPCMO is base oil and VII pack. The cheaper line uses group 3 bases with lower cost VII. The PPCMO upgrades the VII pack (hence higher viscosity indices), but the add pack and bases are essentially the same. Finally, the PPPCMO upgrades the main base to PAO while using the latest shear stable VIIs.

All the formulas to my knowledge have esters and some AN added as co-bases, but the proportion will vary of course.

 

[RBT]

There are various weights of oil, of course. Is there an amount of miles on a vehicle where it is a good idea to jump up a weight in oil?

In other words, is there a certain amount of miles where to get the same function from the weight a person was using, that person needs to go up in weight?

Hypothetical example: The manual says 5W20 or 5W30 should be used. After 150K miles, does a person need to jump up to 5W40 to get the same effect that the previous oil provided when the car was newer?

Short answer: no. If the car runs fine leave it alone.

Longer answer: if your car is serviced at a reputable shop, they will not want to deviate from the factory recommendation so unless you are doing the maintenance yourself expect some pushback on using an oil different than specified. Not just engine oil, but driveline fluids, transmission fluids, etc.

Final consideration: many people consider the lower viscosity oils to be some sort of conspiracy. But the reality is, and I say this as someone who is not an exactly a fan of the EPA’s meddling in fuel economy, is that the average age of a car today is older than it has ever been. Lower viscosity oils like 5w20 have been mainstream for close to 20 years and we are seeing this record longevity (maybe in spite of EPA meddling) and so to draw a conclusion that modern engines cannot properly function for a long time is not a conclusion that is supported by the longevity data we see. It is popular to say in enthusiast circles that “new cars suck” relative to some golden age, but the reliability and longevity data in general belies this claim. The proper analysis focuses on following the maintenance requirements of your car and using quality parts, including motor oil, with any repair or maintenance procedure.

Have a good day.

 

[kschachn]

Short answer: no. If the car runs fine leave it alone.

Longer answer: if your car is serviced at a reputable shop, they will not want to deviate from the factory recommendation so unless you are doing the maintenance yourself expect some pushback on using an oil different than specified. Not just engine oil, but driveline fluids, transmission fluids, etc.

Final consideration: many people consider the lower viscosity oils to be some sort of conspiracy. But the reality is, and I say this as someone who is not an exactly a fan of the EPA’s meddling in fuel economy, is that the average age of a car today is older than it has ever been. Lower viscosity oils like 5w20 have been mainstream for close to 20 years and we are seeing this record longevity (maybe in spite of EPA meddling) and so to draw a conclusion that modern engines cannot properly function for a long time is not a conclusion that is supported by the longevity data we see. It is popular to say in enthusiast circles that “new cars suck” relative to some golden age, but the reliability and longevity data in general belies this claim. The proper analysis focuses on following the maintenance requirements of your car and using quality parts, including motor oil, with any repair or maintenance procedure.

Have a good day.

Sure. On the other hand, a 20-grade is on the cusp where increased wear occurs unless there are design changes to the engine.

For me though, a small increase in fuel consumption is an easy trade off when I consider that fuel dilution is a factor in engines such as the EA888 in my Tiguan, and that it is turbocharged. I'll gladly trade that extra fuel for the protection that an oil like ESP 30-grade brings. Other than the fuel economy there's no advantage in using the recommended 508 00 oil in that engine - especially as it ages.

I don't look at it as a conspiracy, I look at it as a focus. I also understand why the particular grade is recommended and I understand it isn't specifically technical in nature. It isn't because the engine needs that grade in any mechanical way.

 

[50yr Street Mech]

Ok: Here's the breakdown. Every 3k, this 13' CRV, with 614,877mi gets EPR 109, drain out till no drips, new filter ( usually OEM ), new crush washer. Then in goes the 0W20 with BG PN 115. Daily driver, it's just tired, no roached bearings. I'd be tired too . Is the PN 115 helping longevity ? Using 20k synthetic oil. Yes, to many, this seems like at waste of $$$$$$.....But, it's only about 2 OCI's a year since we alternate cars. 6 months on the CRV, 6 months on the 03' Solara. Wifey uses them for work, food shop, pharmacy, etc. I''m retired and just putz around the house, maybe go to the orange store for something, get gas for the lawn equipment. Wifey's round trip from work is 26 miles. So, the CRV is really only run 6 months a year, in the cooler months ( Oct-Apr ). So, it's a bi-yearly cool weather daily driver. She picked those months because of the AWD for the snow. So, will 0W20 with BG PN 115 suffice with the cooler temps she uses the thing for. Basically it sees 6k on the ODO a year, that's it. The mileage got that high when I was working, and using that car/truck/or whatever it's called. Have the internal hemmoroid's procedure to prove it. LOL ... Man..that recovery HURT !!!!!!!!!

 

[RDY4WAR]

Ok: Here's the breakdown. Every 3k, this 13' CRV, with 614,877mi gets EPR 109, drain out till no drips, new filter ( usually OEM ), new crush washer. Then in goes the 0W20 with BG PN 115. Daily driver, it's just tired, no roached bearings. I'd be tired too . Is the PN 115 helping longevity ? Using 20k synthetic oil. Yes, to many, this seems like at waste of $$$$$$.....But, it's only about 2 OCI's a year since we alternate cars. 6 months on the CRV, 6 months on the 03' Solara. Wifey uses them for work, food shop, pharmacy, etc. I''m retired and just putz around the house, maybe go to the orange store for something, get gas for the lawn equipment. Wifey's round trip from work is 26 miles. So, the CRV is really only run 6 months a year, in the cooler months ( Oct-Apr ). So, it's a bi-yearly cool weather daily driver. She picked those months because of the AWD for the snow. So, will 0W20 with BG PN 115 suffice with the cooler temps she uses the thing for. Basically it sees 6k on the ODO a year, that's it. The mileage got that high when I was working, and using that car/truck/or whatever it's called. Have the internal hemmoroid's procedure to prove it. LOL ... Man..that recovery HURT !!!!!!!!!

The 0W-20 will be fine by itself. The BG is just making your wallet lighter. BG 115 has a KV100 of just 7.7 cSt (likely lower viscosity than your 0W-20) with a pour point of just -25°F and flash point of just 355°F. That's making your oil worse. Ditch it.

It's highly unlikely that your oil needs or benefits from a supplement. If your oil actually needs a supplement, you're using the wrong oil.

 

[kschachn]

The 0W-20 will be fine by itself. The BG is just making your wallet lighter. BG 115 has a KV100 of just 7.7 cSt (likely lower viscosity than your 0W-20) with a pour point of just -25°F and flash point of just 355°F. That's making your oil worse. Ditch it.

It's highly unlikely that your oil needs or benefits from a supplement. If your oil actually needs a supplement, you're using the wrong oil.

Exactly.

 

[50yr Street Mech]

Get out !!!! So BG PN 110 or 115 is all B.S. ?????? It actually THINS the oil ?!?!...What good is that ????? No good in my book. Are there any additives that work ? Or are they all snake oil....I was hoping the 115 was keeping the oil from degradation. Guess not. But that was my aim, to stave off degradation....Any additives help keep degradation at bay???, or just stick with the 20K--- 0W20 synthetic., no additives. I know to stay away from the blue bottle. That molasses is insane for a little 4 banger.

 

[kschachn]

Get out !!!! So BG PN 110 or 115 is all B.S. ??????

The 0W-20 will be fine by itself. The BG is just making your wallet lighter. BG 115 has a KV100 of just 7.7 cSt (likely lower viscosity than your 0W-20) with a pour point of just -25°F and flash point of just 355°F. That's making your oil worse. Ditch it.

It's highly unlikely that your oil needs or benefits from a supplement. If your oil actually needs a supplement, you're using the wrong oil.

 

[RDY4WAR]

Get out !!!! So BG PN 110 or 115 is all B.S. ?????? It actually THINS the oil ?!?!...What good is that ????? No good in my book. Are there any additives that work ? Or are they all snake oil....I was hoping the 115 was keeping the oil from degradation. Guess not

The majority of oil supplements are snake oil. The few that do contain beneficial additives are often blended in a cheap bright stock or polymer with poor oxidation resistance and heat tolerance with no guarantee the additive content won't clash with the additive chemistry already in your oil.

If anything, the BG 115 was accelerating degradation. Your mileage results are despite using it, not because of it.

The same applies to the engine restore product. It's a blend of cyclohexane with some alcohol and naptha. It's fully evaporated at 310°F, more than half evaporated at just operating sump temperature of 210°F, making it ineffective around the rings where temperatures can be >400°F. Even if it could survive that environment, cyclohexane is a non-polar solvent and thus cannot dissolve carbonaceous ring deposits which are organic polar compounds. What cyclohexane and alcohol does do is neutralize esters and rapidly accelerate oil oxidation. This turns the oil black, making you think it's doing something. It's a gimmick with a ~40,000% profit margin.

The oil supplement market is among the most unethical markets in existence. They're constantly dodging the FTC in terms of false advertising, and several have been caught and fined. What's a $500k fine though when you're profiting millions? They just reword the marketing to be a little more vague, a little less testable, and keep pushing it. Forget they exist.

This circles back to my suggestion for a higher quality oil. Oils like HPL PCMO (and their HDMO and Euro/Supercar lines) contain high amounts of specific esters, with strong solvency for polar compounds, boiling points >500°F so they can actually survive long enough to clean the rings, and strong oxidation resistance and low volatility to ensure the oil remains serviceable through this cleaning action while not contributing further carbonaceous deposits. If you have a dirty engine, you don't need a supplement. You need a better oil.