UOA comparisons, syn versus dino...

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Here is my arguement as to how synthetic oils reduce engine wear. We can agree that synthetic oils allow you to increase your OCI. Not that it is necessarily cost effective, but you can run longer OCI's with synthetic oil because of the heftier additives. According to the spreadsheet that was put together of Fords "modular" engine UOA's it was shown that Iron wear per thousand miles decreased with OCI. There was nearly a 1 to 1 correlation between ppm iron per 1k miles to the OCI. This was looking at 70 UOAs for similar engines. Here is a chart of the 70 samples with OCI and Miles/ppm iron charted. - So, FTM this data shows that you can reduce wear in your engines by increasing your OCI. The best way to increase your OCI is to switch to Synthetic Oil. Thus, Synthetic oil reduces wear. QED [Cheers!]
 
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Originally posted by fuel tanker man: {snip}If, as advocates of synthetic oil superiority, we have reduced ourselves to saying "iron isn't really iron, or copper isn't really copper, etc.," we are in a peculiar position indeed. [Smile] Dan
Absolutely not. Dan, this sort of statement is where I really take issue with you. You're torturing what others said into something they did not say in order to harpoon an position with which you disagree. I think some would call it a "strawman" attack. No one is saying "iron isn't iron" or "lead isn't lead". What they are saying, and what you're side-stepping, is that there may be a source of metal other than wear that still shows up in the UOA. Oxidation is one source of such metal. Additives are another. I had an oddball reading on a UOA I did a while back which I could not understand, until Terry Dyson pointed out its an additive in fuel preservative. I cycle my older cans of fuel (which I fill ONLY when fuel prices are down and supplies are not challenged...) through my wife's Sequoia, which happily drinks 87. I therefore regularly feed it 5 gal cans of six-month-old 87 that's been dosed with Sta-bil. So what appeared to be an out-of-line reading on a UOA was easily explained by something very different than wear. Other OTC fuel and oil additives have been reported to have similar effects. This is yet another reason why I think the whole premise is flawed. Metal levels in UOAs must be read in an appropriate context. Attempting to rigidly focus on only one of many possible sources of this metal (be it wear, comtamination, or what have you) just does not tell you very much. And it is certainly not the path to the conclusion you're trying to support, that is, that dinos are as good or better than syns. One more thing. Other than simply poking fun at the idea, you really have not explained WHY syns known for their cleaning ability, should not show greater contamination levels on their early runs in a less-than-clean engine. While the focus of your derision has been Redline, consider also the Neo line. These oils are interesting because unlike RL, they are di-ester based, vs. poly-ester based. Di-esters apparently show an even more aggressive tendency to clean than their POE relatives. Neo's marketing info even contains a caution about how to change an older engine over to a di-ester oil, because of how quickly and effectively it picks up stuff accumulated in the engine. Assuming this "stuff" contains the same materials as the oil from which it originated, why shouldn't the oil that picks it up show higher metal content on a UOA?
 
I used to be a Mobil 1 only person for the last 15 years - until I came here. I will admit that after sitting on this site the last year or so, I am using alot more dino oil now [Wink] Todays dino is waaaaaaaay better than yesterdays. Though I am still testing a theory about true synthetic cleaning out sticky ring packs in motors like the Ford 4.6 that use low tension, high mounted rings. That is the one place in an engine that can get over 300F long term, but what I am seeing that once cleaned back out, dino seems to work fine again (how long if ever again is the question now) Cmon synthetic guys - take FTM up on his offer and disprove him already, I have my popcorn buttered and ready [Burnout]
 
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Originally posted by nickmckinney: {snip} Cmon synthetic guys - take FTM up on his offer and disprove him already, I have my popcorn buttered and ready [Burnout]
No way. I'm not going to let him off the burden-of-proof hook. He's the one making specific claims, assertions, and characterizations. If he wants others to prove things, he needs to offer proof of what he claims first. Selectively pulling and citing six, ten, or a dozen UOAs, even of a few similar vehicles falls far short of statistical significance. Relevant, sure, but nowhere near acceptable for scientific or stat purposes. As tantalizing as our UOA collection is, every one of them is done under different conditions by different persons, and so forth. And look at the average length of OCI in our UOA section. Very few of them range into the five-figure range, so right there, the results, taken as a whole, fail to document the performance of syns when they will be at their best compared to dinos. Despite his efforts, Dan really has not proven anything, and I'm not going to stand idly by while he claims its the syn folks who need to prove something. He's claiming that dinos are as good or better than syns, my popcorn is getting cold while I wait for him to prove that to me. [Cheers!]
 
Am I looking at that chart wrong? It looks like the values rise with mileage rather than decrease. What is the theory as to why Iron wear would decrease with longer OCI's?
 
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Originally posted by drums57: EKPOLK i think you should spend more time on the GC forum.
Yeah, maybe. But the elves got tired of me and everyone there agrees with me, so it gets pretty boring. . . Here, on the other hand, I can focus my efforts to turn others to the green side of the force! I've read your stuff, drums, just remember -- resistance is futile -- you will be assimilated. . .
 
There are lots of UOAs to pick from here. And you know what? The majority of them are synthetic UOAs. So if syns can actually beat dinos in the wear metal department, there should be some examples of it here. While the body of UOAs here at BITOG does not in and of itself prove dinos are equal to (if not better) than syns at reducing wear metals, the trend is overwhelmingly in that direction. I know that some of you are looking in the UOAs even as I type this. Perhaps someone will come up with a meaningful example of a syn outperforming a dino in wear metal count. But my popcorn is cold too... [Frown] My questions remain unanswered: If syns are better at reducing wear metals than dinos then why is there so little (perhaps no) evidence here to support that? And why is there a mountain of evidence here to refute it? Dan
 
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Originally posted by ekpolk: Very few of them range into the five-figure range, so right there, the results, taken as a whole, fail to document the performance of syns when they will be at their best compared to dinos.
If the only benefit is shown after say 10K, then below 10K it seems an admission that there is little to no difference (which is what I am seeing at 5K and below intervals myself, little to zero statistical difference). Since I change at 5K, this is the region I care most about.
 
ftm - you are not really furthering your "cause" You have now posted some ridiculous statements:
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we have reduced ourselves to saying "iron isn't really iron, or copper isn't really copper, etc.," we are in a peculiar position indeed.
And out lier/bizarre motorcycle UOA's. In fact, your very first selective links, don't really prove anything. Please post the statistical evidence. This is your thread, your allegation. We are waiting.
 
I love the standoff - you post yours and I will post mine, reminds me of elementary school [Big Grin] Still waiting for a synhead to prove him wrong and shut him up - otherwise we will never hear the end of it [Embarrassed]
 
I might order an back issue of Race Car Engineering magazine that interviewed Shell about lubricants. Had some relevancy to this topic.
 
How does one explain though the fact that all NASCAR, F1 and other racing teams use synthetics? Kenne Bell only uses Redline for superchargers. Dan, would you use Havoline 5w-30 conventional in a 400HP Corvette raced for 3 hours or a synthetic oil?
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Do not use just “any oil” in the Kenne Bell supercharger. We use Redline oil because we believe it to be the best oil available. That does not imply that other oils are not perfectly adequate for engines or transmissions. For normal use, we recommend changing the oil every 12,000 miles. Severe use will require
 
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Havoline Synthetic Motor Oils are formulated with advanced antiwear additives that provide a protective layer on metal surfaces. This combination of synthetic base stocks and advanced antiwear chemistry means reduced wear and longer engine life when compared to conventional mineral oils. Havoline Synthetic Motor Oils contain special detergents and other additives that lead to less oxidation and lower engine deposits than conventional motor oils. Goes to Extremes The superior stability of synthetic base oils allows them to resist degradation during high temperature operation and the high level of detergent additives keep sludge and varnish deposits from forming in the engine. In cold temperatures, Havoline Synthetic Motor Oils flow easily, allowing for faster starts and quicker lubrication. And in today’s hotter running engines, Havoline Synthetic Motor Oils maintain their viscosity and resist oxidation better than conventional mineral oils.
 
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Originally posted by nickmckinney: I love the standoff - you post yours and I will post mine, reminds me of elementary school [Big Grin] Still waiting for a synhead to prove him wrong and shut him up - otherwise we will never hear the end of it [Embarrassed]
I already did. I've seen no explanation as to why my Mustang shows higher lead with a dino. My guess is, the dino sheared down a grade in only 3K miles and wasn't able to keep the bearings and journals apart. Or maybe lead lead doesn't count when you're trying to prove the superiority of cheap oils? Another question. Why is so difficult to find any dino oil that meets the numerous euro long drain specifications? Are there any? I know on other boards what we call posting a thread, then ignoring any evidence counter to your original premise. Hint - it starts with a T...
 
The solution is easy. Take any major brand dino in the weight and spec suggested by the car manufacturer and follow the LC20 recipe (1 oz. per quart, then 1 oz. every 1K). Do OCI according to manual or OLM and forget about it. This will prove better and cheaper in the long run. Okay, you want to try to go beyond 10,000 mile OCI - use synthetic.
 
We're still evading the issue. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or statistical analyst) to realize that if there was in fact a wear advantage to synthetic we'd have at least some farthing of evidence here to build that assertion on. So where is it? Dan
 
Topic moved to tires and wheels? [Big Grin] Surely you jest! Well, anyway... Martyi, here is a 13K OCI on Havoline dino oil which looks really good: http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=002940 Folks are beginning to realize that the newer dinos are able to run much longer than heretofore thought. Tires and wheels? [LOL!] Edit: Okay, it's not in Tires and Wheels anymore. [Smile] [ October 12, 2005, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: fuel tanker man ]
 
ftm I could use vasoline in my engine and get the same UOA up to 3k... Your compairing two oils that hold up the same to a given milage. We can argue what that given milage is, but the facts are you have yet to show me anything that says dinos hold up the same against synthetics in OCI. Its your thread. Start please. Enjoy
 
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