unintended consequences of school bond vote

Status
Not open for further replies.
^^^Nailed it. it's a cultural issue, not revenue based at all. All my kids could read before kindergarten, my son came home crying his first day of school because he said "they're teaching us kid stuff!" Lowest common denominator and all that ruins the smart kids chances and further homogenizes the population.

My middle daughter does night courses at the local JC and just called me today with her big test results. Her grade was a 97, the next lowest grade was 78!!! The kids don't study and then blame the teacher, textbook, or their poor circumstances. NEVER themselves!

We waste billions every year keeping all the unions and administrative folks happy which does ZERO to help the students.

My FIL was the top dog in a local Florida county for three terms (elected, not appointed, the last two he was unopposed. His decision making process was simple: what does this do for the children?

IMO we could lose a lot of the admin and structure things differently, but now we have the ridiculous Common Core standards to deal with. Glad my kids are grown up!
 
I've been paying real estate taxes since 1978. The second half of 2013 property taxes was the FIRST time my fair market value went DOWN and my assessed value went UP...I knew this day would eventually come and it did.
 
Originally Posted By: Eddie
We killed ourselves in Florida by voting to reduce school class size from 25 to 15 students. That basically required more teachers, more class rooms i.e. buildings etc. People just don't think these things through and of course the school lobby pushes it in most cases so the taxpayer never hears the opposing discussion.


Wow.

It's amazing we never hear of such things. Florida is one of the biggest states and education one of the biggest expenses.

Did this happen during the property boom? Some State and local governments, like individuals, get out of hand when tax revenues go up. In that way, they somewhat reflect the people.

I've always felt that you get the government you deserve. How government behaves is a reflection of the morals and ethics of the wider population IMHO.
 
Originally Posted By: pbm
Despite all the big tax increases our 'students' seem to become dumber.....could it be the students themselves maybe?


Its a reflection of society, its values and the choices made. Consumerism has a big part to play in this.
 
Originally Posted By: SrDriver
That is one of the reasons we retired in Southeast Alabama. Our house is valued @ $160,000.00 and our total property taxes for the year this year is just over Four Hundred Dollars.

Same house and lot up in Wisconsin in the small town where I am from would be in the neighborhood of $6,000.00 a year on this house and lot.

We lived in Florida too and their taxes have seen a jump. Then too there is the hurricane insurance that one must contend with which is very expensive.


But you're living in Alabama! All joking aside, Wisconsin was probably a better place to educate your kids. Alabama is near the bottom for a reason.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^Nailed it. it's a cultural issue, not revenue based at all. All my kids could read before kindergarten, my son came home crying his first day of school because he said "they're teaching us kid stuff!" Lowest common denominator and all that ruins the smart kids chances and further homogenizes the population.

My middle daughter does night courses at the local JC and just called me today with her big test results. Her grade was a 97, the next lowest grade was 78!!! The kids don't study and then blame the teacher, textbook, or their poor circumstances. NEVER themselves!

We waste billions every year keeping all the unions and administrative folks happy which does ZERO to help the students.

My FIL was the top dog in a local Florida county for three terms (elected, not appointed, the last two he was unopposed. His decision making process was simple: what does this do for the children?

IMO we could lose a lot of the admin and structure things differently, but now we have the ridiculous Common Core standards to deal with. Glad my kids are grown up!
school systems trying to compensate for bad parenting??
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: R80RS
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
It says the estimated increase is 65 cents, but it will be between 0 to 65 cents. That is hideously worded. Why not just give the actual rate? It makes it sound like the mill levy has progressive rates for this bond issue; I've never heard of that.


It says the rate is $0.65 per $100 of assessed value. Then it states that this constitutes an increase from $0.00 to $0.65, meaning that this is an entirely new tax. It does not imply that the rate for this bond issue may fall between $0.00 and $0.65 but rather that the present rate is $0.00 and when approved the rate is $0.65. Wording like this may be required for referendums under law because many bond issues are for the purpose of refinancing or retiring existing bond issues, in which case it would state the the cost of the current levy and the cost if the proposed refinance bond is approved.


No it doesn't.

"estimated increase to the debt service property tax levy of $0.65 per one hundred dollars of assessed valuation? If this proposition is approved, the adjusted debt service levy of the School District is estimated to increase from $0.00 to $0.65 per one hundred dollars"

It does not in any way give the actual rate.


You are correct when you say "It does not in any way give the actual rate.", although you would be more accurate to say "It does not in any way give the exact rate." The rate of $0.65/$100 is estimated because the cost of the bond issue (principal & interest) is divided by the total taxable real and personal property tax base, the value of which changes from year to year. In other words, the cost to issue and service the bond is generally known, but the value of the property assessments into which that cost will be divided can and will change, so therefore it is not possible to fix an exact mil rate in advance on the referendum. Additionally, the mil rate for this bond will continue to change going forward as property values within the tax base (the size of the overall tax base into which the bond costs can be divided) increase or decrease. (Hopefully not decrease!)

The fact that it does not give the exact mil rate does not mean that the referendum language implies it could be as low as $0.00/$100. The key portion of the sentence is "increase from $0.00 to $0.65" with the notation it is an estimated increase from something ($0) to something ($.65). The language is clear in that regard. To get to your interpretation it would have to read "increase between $0.00 and $0.65."
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^Nailed it. it's a cultural issue, not revenue based at all. All my kids could read before kindergarten, my son came home crying his first day of school because he said "they're teaching us kid stuff!" Lowest common denominator and all that ruins the smart kids chances and further homogenizes the population.

My middle daughter does night courses at the local JC and just called me today with her big test results. Her grade was a 97, the next lowest grade was 78!!! The kids don't study and then blame the teacher, textbook, or their poor circumstances. NEVER themselves!

We waste billions every year keeping all the unions and administrative folks happy which does ZERO to help the students.

My FIL was the top dog in a local Florida county for three terms (elected, not appointed, the last two he was unopposed. His decision making process was simple: what does this do for the children?

IMO we could lose a lot of the admin and structure things differently, but now we have the ridiculous Common Core standards to deal with. Glad my kids are grown up!


Schools around here have SO MANY administrators.

There are 140 administrators in a local school district. Each one pulling > $50K a year.

Do they really need that many ????
 
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^Nailed it. it's a cultural issue, not revenue based at all. All my kids could read before kindergarten, my son came home crying his first day of school because he said "they're teaching us kid stuff!" Lowest common denominator and all that ruins the smart kids chances and further homogenizes the population.

My middle daughter does night courses at the local JC and just called me today with her big test results. Her grade was a 97, the next lowest grade was 78!!! The kids don't study and then blame the teacher, textbook, or their poor circumstances. NEVER themselves!

We waste billions every year keeping all the unions and administrative folks happy which does ZERO to help the students.

My FIL was the top dog in a local Florida county for three terms (elected, not appointed, the last two he was unopposed. His decision making process was simple: what does this do for the children?

IMO we could lose a lot of the admin and structure things differently, but now we have the ridiculous Common Core standards to deal with. Glad my kids are grown up!


Schools around here have SO MANY administrators.

There are 140 administrators in a local school district. Each one pulling > $50K a year.

Do they really need that many ????


In one county near me the Chief gets six figures, a car, a phone, etc. But he has TWO assistants! Each draws 90k!

I can't understand why any superintendent needs two assistants. One at 90k seems bad enough. Very top heavy around here...
 
It doesn't have to be school.

The town/city/county mgmt would just come up with a total amount
of money they want to spend, and find a way to distribute the
burden to all residents.

Note that they came up with the amount first, not the other way
that we would do when running our home.
 
The intended consequence of school bond authorizations is to raise money from property taxes. Montgomery County R-II finance report:
http://mcds.dese.mo.gov/guidedinquiry/District%20and%20School%20Information/School%20Finance%20Report.aspx?rp:DistrictCode=070093

As you can see, enrollment is down from 1305 students in 2011 to 1258 students in 2013. During that same time the school budget went up ~$1,100,000, $11,137,000 to $12,449,000

My presumption is the voters had this information before the vote, since I was able to look it up in less than five minutes.
 
As I mentioned earlier, all of my family is in public education...except me. My dad was pulling down $130K as a principal of an elementary school a few years ago. BUT the real expense is that he retired with a full pension and healthcare for life! His wife is a teacher and makes well over $50K. Not bad for those POOR teachers. BTW she will also get a pension and darn cheap healthcare for life. Woa is the poor underpaid teacher :__)
 
Yeah the healthcare plans that haven't worsened in line with the rest of ours is something. I'm torn because it would be a good example to the rest of the country... but I don't see them lobbying all that hard for the rest of us.

I bet their benefit actuaries say, "well, 50% of school employees will go on their spouse's healthcare" then they're surprised when 90%, don't. "Guess we didn't see that coming."

High school here was brand new, big bond floated, etc. Just before opening they discovered they needed sprinklers to meet code. Oops, more money.
mad.gif
 
$50K at the end of your career isn't much in some parts of the country. Agree with your comments about pensions and health for life, nice gig. That said, it's an important job. Look at the sort of quality employees low pay gets you (take the TSA, for instance)
 
Too many leaders and too few subordinates in the education system.

Also, blame the rise on "special education". Each kid with a IEP gets the school more Medicaid money. So the schools are pushing kids to get IEP's since that means more money. Then the state auditors come in, make the school return a bunch of money, and it has to be made up from somewhere.

For the amount of work a teacher does, $50k plus benefits is not a lot of money. It's the cheapest babysitting you ever found, and your kids get an education (or are supposed to, hah!) out of the deal too.

I recently voted yes to buy the local district some new buses, and voted no on the proposal to install a Astroturf playing field for the soccer team. The existing field is in fine shape, but buses do wear out.
 
Originally Posted By: LazyPrizm
$50K at the end of your career isn't much in some parts of the country. Agree with your comments about pensions and health for life, nice gig. That said, it's an important job. Look at the sort of quality employees low pay gets you (take the TSA, for instance)


the average teacher in Chicago makes over 70k, not bad for basically a part time gig. I have been in sales for a decade, check out the teachers parking lot at 4:30 on any given day. Also factor in the Christmas, Spring and Fall breaks...not to mention that 3 month summer vacay.
 
A couple year back our town's school had a thing on the ballot where they wanted more money. I read up on it and did the research. It was basically the same thing where if it passed our property tax would increase. A few weeks beofore the Nov. election there was a write up on it in the local paper pretty much spelling it out for those who chose not to listen. It said for every $100,000 of value of your home there would be an increase of X amount of dollars in property tax. Well, not enough people took the time to read this and either voted for it or didn't vote at all. It passed and a few months later I got a letter from my mortgage company telling me that my monthly payment was increasing. I have an escrow account that a portion of my payment goes into. In total my property tax went up just over $800 a year. I calculated it right but never thought it'd pass. The uproar from people was almost funny. All these folks had no idea this was coming because they ignored what was on the ballot and written in plain english. I do however feel bad for the people without kids in school of the retired. Not enough people got out and voted though. It just barely passed.

It was a GIANT increase and all at once too. Unbelievable really but at least I was aware it was coming. Time to move out of the city!! Or at least to a new town.
 
Originally Posted By: Barkleymut
Originally Posted By: LazyPrizm
$50K at the end of your career isn't much in some parts of the country. Agree with your comments about pensions and health for life, nice gig. That said, it's an important job. Look at the sort of quality employees low pay gets you (take the TSA, for instance)


the average teacher in Chicago makes over 70k, not bad for basically a part time gig. I have been in sales for a decade, check out the teachers parking lot at 4:30 on any given day. Also factor in the Christmas, Spring and Fall breaks...not to mention that 3 month summer vacay.


That's a pretty lousy assumption right there. On the basis of just the man-year of labor spent in the school building, the "hourly" (remember that they are salaried though) rate is fairly high. But there is insufficient time to perform the work required during the school day, so work always comes home, and the days indeed are longer.

If the school day ends at 245, what reason would you have to keep them until 4:30 (most likely arrive between 7-730) and continue heating/cooling the building? Just because of some jealousy?

Since when is end of June to end of August of the first week of September three months? Maybe 10 weeks at best. Perhaps math could be improved???

Fall breaks? Not here. There is a two day school closure for teacher's convention. Spring break? OK, but that is NOTHING new.
 
Originally Posted By: Barkleymut
Originally Posted By: LazyPrizm
$50K at the end of your career isn't much in some parts of the country. Agree with your comments about pensions and health for life, nice gig. That said, it's an important job. Look at the sort of quality employees low pay gets you (take the TSA, for instance)


the average teacher in Chicago makes over 70k, not bad for basically a part time gig. I have been in sales for a decade, check out the teachers parking lot at 4:30 on any given day. Also factor in the Christmas, Spring and Fall breaks...not to mention that 3 month summer vacay.


Most teachers do work more than 730-330 hours - a lot of teachers are staying around until 4 or 5.

In NY state, with "common core", the teachers have to type up individual lesson plans for EACH STUDENT and where they expect EACH STUDENT (whom they have not met) and submit it to the admimistration.

However, they do get to retire at 805 salary.
 
Summer break here is probably closer to 10 weeks.

oilBabe is a school social worker. Has to deal with the problems created by messed up parenting.

She starts in the early/middle of August and is in session until the mid/late May. She is off June and July and perhaps a week in May and August.

And maybe another month off in all the holidays.

Educators do work long hours when they are in session. But they also have some nice breaks and some great benefits.

I don't think they are over or underpaid for the hours they put in.

Don't forget the automatic pay increases for advanced degrees and years of service.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Ausfahrt
  • Locked
Understanding derivatives- A primer
Replies
8
Views
4K
LS2JSTS
dave1251
  • Locked
Exxon Mobil
Replies
19
Views
16K
MolaKule
C
  • Locked
Get into an accident, pay a "Crash Tax"
2
Replies
28
Views
9K
mechtech2
O
  • Locked
Shantyville, a place, an attitude, an armpit
2
Replies
24
Views
13K
Pablo
A
  • Locked
Kerry Resume For President
2 3
Replies
47
Views
16K
motorguy222
Back
Top Bottom