Turbo shaft lubrication in auto start/stop systems

I'm also not sure why starter/gens aren't making their way to more modern cars. Eliminate the flywheel starter completely.
imagine you left the car for week..
i doubt the pressure in "ready to fire" cylinder would stay high enough...
Not if you inject fuel into one cylinder and fire it in a millisecond. The computer makes sure one cylinder is ready to go by having the piston in the ideal position for this type of restart.

That is a intelligent start stop system.
likely not true for older s&s systems, or non 48v systems. (in general, standard size alternators not able to roll the engine into preferred position)
 
Last edited:
imagine you left the car for week..
i doubt the pressure in "ready to fire" cylinder would stay high enough...
Fresh Cylinders bleed down significantly in 10 mins or less. You want the engine cranking a bit before it fires after sitting. Cars start too fast.
On performance V8's We had starter and ignition switches.
Crank up some OP then Fire.
 
If I could counter your points:

The additional components do nothing but help increase the car's reliability, especially if you're so against S/S that you turn it off. Some components may be more robust. The added complexity is little more than some extra coding.

The intended task of S/S is to reduce the fuel wasted by sitting, and that's all it is. If S/S activates, you were wasting fuel. Perhaps some MFGs implement it poorly, but I have never owned a S/S car that left me hot or humid - they all facilitate passenger comfort by monitoring inside/outside temps.

The goal of S/S is not to necessarily save the owner money (even though it does) - it is to save the emissions generated when millions upon millions of cars sit idly, wasting fuel.
I guess I have to disagree, and you'll disagree with me. That's OK - it's not a taunt, but I don't understand how you can make some of these claims. So I'd ask if you can help me understand the reason on your side of the equation ...

How can more components "do nothing but help increase the car's reliability"? More components = more opportunities for failures.
If you had a choice of using one 10' section of copper pipe, or 10 sections of 1' each joined with a coupling between each section, the more complex system creates more cost in parts, more potential failure points, etc. Please riddle me this; how does more parts = increasing reliability? What I could agree with you on is the fact that maybe to improve the reliability of the starter (expected to see perhaps 30x more starts with auto s/s), they build a much more robust starter. OK - so that adds a lot of cost. Kind of my point previously. They add cost to initially purchase, they add complexity which raises reliability concerns, and they add cost at time of repair. I'll ask you to explain how a more complex system with more expensive components is a desirable thing?

That you've not been in a car that's hot/humid with auto s/s doesn't mean my experiences are any less distasteful or true. The BMW with auto s/s I was in was annoyingly hot/humid, as was the Buick, as was the Ford, as was the Toyota. It's been my experience that it's common among several brands, not one brand. The fact is that it's not a brand issue; it's an environmental issue. Now, if the vehicle a/c system was able to run for 20 continuous minutes during a long duration drive, and therefore the car had cooled down nicely and the humidity was drawn out, and then you exit the interstate and you came upon a stop light where you had to wait for 20 seconds, perhaps the effect of auto s/s is well muted. But to the contrary, if you jump into a hot car on the campus of a midwest University in humid August, and sit in traffic for blocks and blocks and blocks, the a/c has not run long enough in succession to draw the humidity out of the air. The "defeat" button is there for a reason, after all. Some folks don't mind humidity; they love the deep south. Others like me cannot tolerate the humidity; we crave dry air. I tolerate living in the midwest because of a/c in my home and in my vehicles.

I understand why the auto s/s exists; it's a fuel savings thing. It's the same reason that thinner lubes are being utilized. And lighter vehicle materials. And the reason that charging systems are now monitored on/off rather than being "always on". And so on ...

I certainly realize that the technology is going to be better and better with every iteration. I agree that this will do nothing but proliferate into vehicles in the future. I also realize that folks like me will continue to defeat such systems, even if it means buying aftermarket solutions to do so. I also agree that there are some times when auto s/s may not be all that annoying, if you'll agree that there are times it's truly intrusive and uncomfortable.

I'm just as OK with wasting fuel (no auto s/s) as others are here wasting lubes and filters by changing them far too frequently.
Wasted beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
 
imagine you left the car for week..
i doubt the pressure in "ready to fire" cylinder would stay high enough...

likely not true for older s&s systems, or non 48v systems. (in general, standard size alternators not able to roll the engine into preferred position)

Pressure is gone in seconds, but that's not how it works. They use the unpressurised air in cylinder, add a tiny amount of fuel so the mixture is good enough and ignite that. I makes enough power to compress the next cylinder which then receives a normal amount of fuel.
 
I guess I have to disagree, and you'll disagree with me. That's OK - it's not a taunt, but I don't understand how you can make some of these claims. So I'd ask if you can help me understand the reason on your side of the equation ...

How can more components "do nothing but help increase the car's reliability"? More components = more opportunities for failures.
If you had a choice of using one 10' section of copper pipe, or 10 sections of 1' each joined with a coupling between each section, the more complex system creates more cost in parts, more potential failure points, etc. Please riddle me this; how does more parts = increasing reliability? What I could agree with you on is the fact that maybe to improve the reliability of the starter (expected to see perhaps 30x more starts with auto s/s), they build a much more robust starter. OK - so that adds a lot of cost. Kind of my point previously. They add cost to initially purchase, they add complexity which raises reliability concerns, and they add cost at time of repair. I'll ask you to explain how a more complex system with more expensive components is a desirable thing?

That you've not been in a car that's hot/humid with auto s/s doesn't mean my experiences are any less distasteful or true. The BMW with auto s/s I was in was annoyingly hot/humid, as was the Buick, as was the Ford, as was the Toyota. It's been my experience that it's common among several brands, not one brand. The fact is that it's not a brand issue; it's an environmental issue. Now, if the vehicle a/c system was able to run for 20 continuous minutes during a long duration drive, and therefore the car had cooled down nicely and the humidity was drawn out, and then you exit the interstate and you came upon a stop light where you had to wait for 20 seconds, perhaps the effect of auto s/s is well muted. But to the contrary, if you jump into a hot car on the campus of a midwest University in humid August, and sit in traffic for blocks and blocks and blocks, the a/c has not run long enough in succession to draw the humidity out of the air. The "defeat" button is there for a reason, after all. Some folks don't mind humidity; they love the deep south. Others like me cannot tolerate the humidity; we crave dry air. I tolerate living in the midwest because of a/c in my home and in my vehicles.

I understand why the auto s/s exists; it's a fuel savings thing. It's the same reason that thinner lubes are being utilized. And lighter vehicle materials. And the reason that charging systems are now monitored on/off rather than being "always on". And so on ...

I certainly realize that the technology is going to be better and better with every iteration. I agree that this will do nothing but proliferate into vehicles in the future. I also realize that folks like me will continue to defeat such systems, even if it means buying aftermarket solutions to do so. I also agree that there are some times when auto s/s may not be all that annoying, if you'll agree that there are times it's truly intrusive and uncomfortable.

I'm just as OK with wasting fuel (no auto s/s) as others are here wasting lubes and filters by changing them far too frequently.
Wasted beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Ya. A lot of that has to do with the programming. I complained to BMW about the feature due to your very same experience in hot/humid environments. I was surprised that they (ie. Bosch) didn't come up with a new design for a compressor which ran off the battery only. I would've thought that the big AGM batteries used in BMW's could handle the current draw for the 2-3 minutes that the car isn't running.
 
Ya. A lot of that has to do with the programming. I complained to BMW about the feature due to your very same experience in hot/humid environments. I was surprised that they (ie. Bosch) didn't come up with a new design for a compressor which ran off the battery only. I would've thought that the big AGM batteries used in BMW's could handle the current draw for the 2-3 minutes that the car isn't running.
The a/c compressor could be made to run on electric only; take out the belt drive clutch completely. But then you're making a greater efficiency loss by taking mechanical energy (running belt drive) and putting the energy into the battery (electrical), and then delivering that energy back to another electric motor on the a/c compressor. Rather than going directly from the belt to the compressor clutch, you'd be adding a detour from the belt, to the alternator, to the battery, to the electric motor. Diverted power routes never increase efficiency. I know that many Fords now use a voltage monitoring system to turn off the charging loop, rather than running all the time, to save fuel (less parasitic alternator energy draw). But if you convert the a/c compressor to full electric, that's going to increase electrical draw on the system which would then need to supply large amounts of power on demand during the auto-stop cycle of the engine, which in turn means the alternator has to work longer/harder to replenish that electrical energy when the engine is actually running again, which consumes more fuel ...
It's a parasitic rabbit hole!

Or, we could have a different approach ... a dual-power driven a/c compressor; runs with engine and additionally has an electric motor drive. But that only serves to exemplify my points ... Now they have to add an electric motor drive to supplement the engine driven clutch on the a/c.
Additional costs + additional failure modes = greater costs & inconveniences
 
Last edited:
lots of OPINIONS for sure + we all have one BUT IMO TOO MUCH unneeded tech in todays vehicles, its all about the EPA + marketing. some prolly necessary but $$$$ always comes into play. the longer you keep a vehicle the more LIKELY things are to fail + when they do its big $$$$ i dont have so i stick to older vehicles, your choice your $$$$, have a nice trouble free day + RELAX!!! its healthier
 
lots of OPINIONS for sure + we all have one BUT IMO TOO MUCH unneeded tech in todays vehicles, its all about the EPA + marketing. some prolly necessary but $$$$ always comes into play. the longer you keep a vehicle the more LIKELY things are to fail + when they do its big $$$$ i dont have so i stick to older vehicles, your choice your $$$$, have a nice trouble free day + RELAX!!! its healthier

What???
 
I managed a fleet of F150's and we had plenty of turbo issues. It's hard to blame the auto start/stop fully, however, as many of those drivers did not understand oil needed to be changed on a regular basis. However, my own assigned F150 ended up needing one of the turbos replaced, and I was one to idle a touch before shut down. Didn't have start/stop in my truck.
 
Back
Top