Turbine Oil Load carrying, How?

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This has always fascinated me: How does a 5cst Turbine oil have the load carrying capacity it does? It is used throughout turboshaft engines from the roller element bearing to the reduction gearbox. How can it do this, given that in most applications the bearing sumps vent into the gearbox increasing the temperature! I have noticed that the film strength of this oil type is high, noticed when it is poured hot and cold etc.

I have inspected many gears lubed with this stuff and they generally wear very well, evenly and predictably. They are high quality gears of course but they can go thousands and thousands of hours under continuous load with only a 5cst oil!! Compare this to the guy who's says his kawasaki utility engine has gone 1700hrs without major repairs, and he's happy about it!! What is it, the additive package, the base oil characteristics?
 
Excellent Question:

1. The loads in jet engines are mostly thrust loads, and not radial loads as found in gas and diesel engines. There are no "impulse" loads in the radial direction in which to resist. There is mostly rotational motion.

2. The flame of combustion never touches the oil. So the oil never oxidizes from combustion or becomes contaminated with blowby gasses. Acids can only form by metal activation, and metal deactivators are used to kill any corrosion. The oil may oxidize from heat due to thermal energy being conducted from the combustor to the turbine bearing. Antioxidant additives, and very expensive ones at that, are used to protect the oil from oxidizing due to thermal cooking.

3. The fluids used for lubrication are low viscosity fluids because jet engines need swift lubrication to the bearing "cells," and because the bearings are cooled by the oil, using heat exchangers. There are two heat exchangers. One is the fuel-to-oil heat exchanger, and the other is the air-to-oil heat exchanger. The fuel-to-oil AND the air-to-oil heat exchangers are used when air flow through the nacelle is insufficient, or when the fuel flow is low, as when when taxiing or during take-off thrust when heating is high. While in the air and at high altitudes, the air-to-oil heat exchanger functions by removing oil heat and transferring that heat to the fuel, so that the fuel flows better and preheats the fuel as well.

4. Extreme pressure additives (and very expensive as well) are added when the jet engine is to be used in TurboProp configuration. The same oil not only lubricates the bearing cells in the jet engine, but lubricates the gears and bearings in the speed reduction transmission for the prop, and also lubricates the gears and bearings for Accessory Gearbox. I should add that many of these EP/AW additives are advanced esters, themselves.

The lubricant is usually a Pentaerythritol, a Di-Pentaerythritol, TMP, TME or a combination of polyol esters with just a few percentages of additives. Very expensive fluids.

Most jet engines usually run 10,000 hours on one oil change and consume about a 1/2 to one pint of oil per hour.

There are generally small screen-type (mesh) filters at each bearing cell and one larger filter for filtering the bulk oil. Oil pressure is generally about the same or lower than a high performance automobile engines pressure.

EDIT: Advanced and exotic jet engine (turbine) fluids are being developed as we speak to increase lifetime of the fluids and to withstand the higher temperatures those fluids will have to endure in the future. Higher turbine inlet temperatures relates to higher thrust and fuel efficiency.

[ July 01, 2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
Thanks for the detailed response.

So is the "clinging" nature of these fluids engineered into them, does it provide the high film strength inorder to provide film lubrication in the gearboxes?

The development of the High Thermal Stability (HTS) oils is very interesting. There are certainly engines that come to mind where the straight Type II oils do not resist the thermal breakdown well enough. Rolls-Royce Allison Model 250 comes to mind. Mobil from what I understand has been a leader in the field with the 254 and 291 oils. These were marketed 3 or 4 years ago so I could be out to lunch. The majority of my experience has been with BP Turbo Oil 2380 (old Exxon TO 2380).
 
"So is the "clinging" nature of these fluids engineered into them, does it provide the high film strength inorder to provide film lubrication in the gearboxes?"

Since these are synthetic fluids, many of the qualities required are engineered into the fluid, but no jet engine or turboprop fluid is without some additives to enhance the base oil.

The Polyol esters have about a 4,000 psi film strength by themselves, but when the fluid is used for turboprops (using the P&W PT6A Canada example), you need extra AW/EP additives for the gearboxes and it's bearings, albeit in very low treat rates, as compared to automotive engines or differentials. A slight bit of tackifier with surfactant is used to keep the oil clinging to the high rpm gearing. The bearings in the gearbox are usually pressurized, with the gears running in a closed gearbox of oil. Some gearboxes use a nozzle to spray an oil film on critical areas.
 
the oil in a turbine engine is mostly for cooling the parts. all of the bearings are roller and ball so there is very little friction. they operate for hours at constant load, rpm, and tempature. very little contamination. those are ideal conditions for for very low friction.
the oil systems are very controlled by spraying the oil on the part that needs it then scavenging it away and back to the cooler then to the tank.
also the materials in turbine engines are very high quality. cost is not nearly as much of a factor as it is in a automotive engine. that is apparent when you order $250,000 of parts for the same engine in one day
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the rotating assy. sealing systems in a jet engine are really interesting too. not anything a normal person has ever seen.

here is a used oil analysis of a P&W engine from blackstone's site.
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Thanks Tom,

You win First prize for Jet Engine Oil Analysis.

You can see in the analysis that one of the primary AW/EP additives is the high phosphorus ZDDP.

Special esters act as friction reducers and mild
AW additives.

The only other additive to appear is the defoamant.

For what it's worth, 100,000 lb. thrust turbofan jet engines show almost the same analysis after 2,000 hours or more.
 
I can't help but wonder what would happen with this stuff in an old lawnmower.......I have Mil spec 23699 oil at work, maybe I need to take a quart home and retire a lawnmower..!!
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pretty good chance that the lawnmower will end up retired.

The load cycles are completely different.

We had a bunch of guys at work in the dim dark ages who took home some steam turbine oil, thinking that if it looked after 200 tonnes of turbine at 3000RPM, and only needed changing every 5 or 6 years, then it must be good.

Their engines retired pretty quickly.

Although gas turbines and steam turbines have bugger all in common in the bearing department.
 
I am not so sure it would kill the lawn mower. I use BP-2380 for certain home engineering projects with fairly good results. The reason for the use of that particular oil is the great heat tolerance.

If you think about it this way, That oil provides about the same lubrication as a very thin synthetic such as 0-30.

Chris
 
It wouldn't kill the lawnmower it will kill the seals in the lawn mower, especially any lip seal or O-Ring that is wetted all the time. Gaskets will last longer, simply because the gasket material has limited contact with the oil by nature of its position between parts on the fayed surface.

Any seal that is not at a minimum BUNA-N will be destroyed. Viton or another fluorocarbon material is the choice. I don't think B&S are supplying $20.00 O-Rings in ye'ole splash lubricated air cooled reciprocating engine.
 
Cujet,

I think the oil would have too low a viscosity for an IC non-jet engine. And the protective additive package is not up to snuff for B&S use.
 
I ran some Jet turbine oil in my Sears lawn mower for the entire summer last year. It worked flawlessly although the engine did start weeping oil around the paper case gasket. At the time I had the viscosity of the oil and if I remember correctly it was a 20 weight. I can't remember at the moment what it was but I do remember it was a newly branded BP product so if BP merged with someone else they kept the same oil number but different brand name. I will look it up at work tonight and modify my post tomorrow.

If someone wants to pay for a VOA I'll provide a quart.
 
I'f you send it to me, I will have it analyzed, with the proviso that you send in a used oil analysis of the same oil after the mowing season is over. Send me a PM if your interested.

I cannot post our oils for analysis since we have a ND agreement with our lubricant supplier and since some of the engines are used in ...... projects.
 
Molakule, I had to drain that oil out last year. It started leaking oil from the case gasket. After I changed out the jet oil it stopped leaking.

Do you still want me to send a quart to you or do you have access to turbine oil yourself?

[ July 17, 2003, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: FowVay ]
 
You can send the oil to me if you like,
and I do have access to turbine oils, but as state above,

"I cannot post our oils for analysis since we have a ND agreement with our lubricant supplier and since some of the engines are used in ...... projects. "
 
quote:

Originally posted by sub_zero:
I don't think B&S are supplying $20.00 O-Rings in ye'ole splash lubricated air cooled reciprocating engine.

Sub zero have you bought any lawn mower parts lately??
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