Tuned Accord 2.0T - First Oil Change Choices?

[nicholas]

Read any Honda forum where Hondata has posted. Hondata's own website should have the data as well, that on 87 both engines are pulling a lot of timing to reduce knock. You get slightly more power on 91 and 93 in the low and high end, but not really any "peak" difference. Hondata even proved that to remove ANY timing adjustment by the ECU you have to run 100 octane, which is what Honda used to make their base map tunes.

I am on many forums where hondata is posted.
Yes lots of timing pull and fuel but almost no turbo or headgasket failures.... 99% being run on 0w-20.
This 1.5 is in all crv's, 1.5 accords....much more were built than the 2.0t and a majority of civics....
We're are talking 100's of Millions of cars.
Nothing.......a few, but that happens to every car that gets abused.

You are simply incorrect in your assumptions that 0w-20 leads to shorter lifespan for this or even the 2.0t.

 

[nicholas]

Yes for the oil, there is greater shear heating in the bearings.

I know.....

 

[nicholas]

Read any Honda forum where Hondata has posted. Hondata's own website should have the data as well, that on 87 both engines are pulling a lot of timing to reduce knock. You get slightly more power on 91 and 93 in the low and high end, but not really any "peak" difference. Hondata even proved that to remove ANY timing adjustment by the ECU you have to run 100 octane, which is what Honda used to make their base map tunes.

This does not prove what you are arguing here.
At all?

 

[tolian21]

No it's not.
The OP stated that the 1.5t is a dog of an engine that has head gasket failures and turbo failures across the board.
This is grosly incorrect.

What I am posting IS on topic.

Your comment was about overall reliability of DI engines on 0w-20:
"0w-20 engines , DI turbo included, can easily go 300k, many here have done so. "

I do not see how this has anything to do with Honda 2.0/1.5t oil dilution issues.

 

[Cujet]

Amg doesn't know anything about building engines. Silly company

Interestingly, many newer engines have large rod and crank bearings. So much so, the connecting rod cap must be machined at an angle to fit through the bore. The official reason may be stated as follows" This design allows the use of a smaller bore while still maintaining a large rod bearing journal". The Jaguar AJ126/AJ133 3.0/5.0 engine is made this way, and is spec'd to use 0W-20. Even so, the first batch of rod and main bearings were not up to the task. Subsequent models had improved bearings which hold up somewhat better. Even so, they may show signs of distress under "playful" use.

An "old school" metric I like to use is simply HP per cylinder. Once a forced induction engine is making about 70HP per cylinder, it's stressing the rod bearings significantly. It might be a really good idea to ensure your oil has adequate viscosity to carry the load. Generally done by careful oil temperature management and oil choice.

Very high RPM naturally aspirated engines are different, as the rod bearing loads are often largely a factor of RPM. Cylinder pressures are lower, inertial loads are higher.

Ford 2.7L 325HP V6 con rod:
Note: this design uses 5W-30 and has no significant issues.

 

[Cujet]

Anyway, if it were my tuned, 2.0 350HP Honda Accord, I'd be using the most robust 5W or 10W-30 I could find. And I'd not worry about the slight loss in efficiency. I see no other downside to this.

In reality, the tune clearly means higher loads, and higher piston and ring pack temperatures. That is why I'd consider an oil that can handle more load and temp.

 

[nicholas]

Your comment was about overall reliability of DI engines on 0w-20:
"0w-20 engines , DI turbo included, can easily go 300k, many here have done so. "

I do not see how this has anything to do with Honda 2.0/1.5t oil dilution issues.

We will agree to disagree

 

[Revving2Redline]

The most powerful production 4 cylinder on the planet is specced 0w20.

The Honda Civic Type R !!!!? I'm sure it might be okay but that car and I'm sure that MB have a much larger oil capacity and cooling technology. I would run a HPL / Redline 0w20 if it's winter but aside from that it would be 0 & 5w30.

 

[thastinger]

On my 2 supercharged V8s, I either run M1 Euro 0-40 or RP HPS 5-30 year round. I'm in SE VA, right by the bay, so because of the tempering of the bay water, weather isn't much different that what you describe.

 

[TiGeo]

I would use the highest HTHS oil I could in that tuned turbo engine that I could to give me the most protection possible b/c you are going to be driving it harder than if it was stock - the Euro oils are going to win here if you are willing to run them.

 

[TiGeo]

If its a naturally aspirated dual injected old school motor, I am sure 0w20 would be fine, but on a turbocharged GDI engine? The germans already went through that and I refuse to lose money on honda's behalf.

What do you mean by "the germans already went through that"? Through what?

 

[TiGeo]

There is a worrying amount of people on line, forums, youtube, etc, who have had the following:
head gasket failures (some report 30-40k miles, some 90-110k miles and up)
failing spark plugs and injectors (30k miles +)
failing turbo chargers (this is the least common but still plenty of evidence that the smaller DT03 isn't as stout as the DT04)
various issues with intercooler piping and intercooler failure (the connections are plastic and are prone to cracking and leaking boost)

and thats on STOCK engines without any tunes or modifications. Those that modify them report that the crank, con rods, pistons, valves, etc, cant handle anything past 6k RPM after a tune for any extended period of time simply because the engine is that weak. A few tear downs on youtube show that even the conrod bolts are so small and weak that you might as well use a wood screw. Not only that, the crank isn't fully balanced (facepalm).

Again, there isn't enough of ONE specific issue (other than the fuel dilution) to warrant a recall, but honda fixes all of this under power train warranty on the down low.

Also, the "oil dilution" fix was software, and never addressed the actually issue of blow by. The cylinder walls are so weak that if they did tighten down tolerances the cylinder sleeves could and would crack from the boost.

Using the online enthusiast community's issues about a given car/engine and extrapolating that to the general population of a given car/engine is going to be skewed to say the least. I'm not hearing issues about Honda engines beyond the fuel dilution issue which is well-documented. Sure, the Honda tuner roll racer bros and their tuned 1.5s are blowing up some engines and that's heavily weighing the results you find online would be my take but the vast majority of owners are just bee-boppin' their way to work, school, and the grocery store trouble-free.

 

[TiGeo]

ktuner allows for a lot of changes to the driving dynamics of the car such as faster turbo spool, less throttle delay, dynamic VSC, and much more. When I got the car, stock from a 40 roll it got gapped by a stage 1 civic si. So its not as fast as people say. Its quick once youre in boost, but it has a pretty crappy top end (past 4500 RPM) and the turbo lag is absolutely ridiculous compared to the 1.5, Id say from a dig the turbo will be in boost only by 3500 RPM even though honda advertises "peak torque" at 1500 (I call BS, there is literally no way that can happen considering the transmission keeps the car at 1400RPM MINIMUM at any speed). On 93 octane and stage 2 youre gaining about 88lbft and 60whp and torque comes in earlier and doesn't fall off as hard. I still average well over the rated MPG on the highway, so the trade off is none...smoother and better power at more RPM, the only risk I can think of is faster heat soak of the intercooler and more turbo wear if you run the car hard all the time.

The k20 as an engine is nearly bullet proof as long as its well taken care of. My issue is literally NO ONE can seem to answer my question of long term 5w30 usage on this engine specifically.

EDIT: if you have little experience with turbo engines, the realization hits hard that its just a 2.0 NA engine with a big spinny boy strapped to it to "make the rated power" when in boost, when not in boost, its just a 150hp civic motor in a giant 4 door sedan, trying to make a gap split second in traffic or merge in high way traffic its harder when you need to get into boost to do anything, hence why the early spool is by far the best feature of the tune.

Factory its 252hp 273lbft. With stage 2 (and by the way, you need zero mods to do this) you're making well over 300lbft at earlier RPM than stock and peak at about 330.

EDIT2:
For reference, the only difference between the civic type r and the accord 2.0 are more aggressive cams and bigger turbo and intercooler. The engine was designed with 500hp+ in mind, you're limited by boost obviously.

That's a weird torque curve on that tune to me.

 

[ZedzAmg]

The Honda Civic Type R !!!!? I'm sure it might be okay but that car and I'm sure that MB have a much larger oil capacity and cooling technology. I would run a HPL / Redline 0w20 if it's winter but aside from that it would be 0 & 5w30.

Yes definitely the Type R! I dont think the M139 has a crazy high oil capacity at 6quarts. I will say with ambient temperatures in the 50s oil temps dont go over 170F. I wouldn't want a 30 or 40 weight with temps under 220F.

 

[kschachn]

Yes definitely the Type R! I dont think the M139 has a crazy high oil capacity at 6quarts. I will say with ambient temperatures in the 50s oil temps dont go over 170F. I wouldn't want a 30 or 40 weight with temps under 220F.

Oh why not?

 

[TiGeo]

I wouldn't want a 30 or 40 weight with temps under 220F.

Why not? Many vehicles spec'd with 40W have oil temps under 220 (my Atlas is an example).

 

[Revving2Redline]

The perfect range is 210ish. If your aren't getting it to that area consistently then oil might not be where it's designed to be.

 

[Revving2Redline]

Another good video about oils.

 

[ZedzAmg]

Oh why not?

Why not? Many vehicles spec'd with 40W have oil temps under 220 (my Atlas is an example).

Operating temperature Kv is normally measured at 100c (212F). Do you start your car and run it to redline? No. Why? Because oil is too cold and thick for proper protection. An Xw40 has a Kv of +/- 80 at 40c and +/- 14 at 100c. I dont have a chart to measure but what is the Kv going to be if oil temp is only 60c? Its going to be thick. I dont want unnecessarily thick oil when my oil temperatures arent even remotely close to 100c especially in a car that is specced for 0w20.

 

[kschachn]

Operating temperature Kv is normally measured at 100c (212F). Do you start your car and run it to redline? No. Why? Because oil is too cold and thick for proper protection. An Xw40 has a Kv of +/- 80 at 40c and +/- 14 at 100c. I dont have a chart to measure but what is the Kv going to be if oil temp is only 60c? Its going to be thick. I dont want unnecessarily thick oil when my oil temperatures arent even remotely close to 100c especially in a car that is specced for 0w20.

Do you start your car and run it to redline? If not then all of this is irrelevant. Most if it is anyway since when the oil is even cool it is very thick regardless of the grade. Manufacturers don't "spec" oils, the grade(s) listed in the manual are recommendations and these days aren't based on purely technical reasons.

People keep trying to come up with either disadvantages to a somewhat higher HT/HS or advantages to thinner oils but as seen there aren't any.