TSMC’s Arizona Trials Put Plant Productivity on Par with Taiwan

[buster]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...tivity-on-par-with-taiwan?srnd=phx-technology

Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. achieved production yields at its Arizona facility on par with established plants back home, an early indicator that its marquee US project is on track to achieve its targets.

The Taiwanese chipmaker’s yield rate in trial production at its first advanced US plant is similar to comparable facilities in the southern Taiwanese city of Tainan, according to a person familiar with the company, who asked not to be identified discussing private corporate matters. TSMC had said it started engineering wafer production in April with advanced 4-nanometer process technology.

Yield rate, or how many usable chips a company can produce during a single manufacturing process, is a key factor that impacts profitability. While TSMC doesn’t disclose its yield rate, investors are counting on the company’s ability to maintain steady margins. The company has said it can maintain gross margin rates at 53% or higher in the long run, and has kept its net profit steady at above 36% over the past four years.

TSMC said in an email that its Arizona project is “proceeding as planned with good progression,” without commenting on the yield.

The go-to chipmaker for Apple Inc. and Nvidia Corp. originally planned to have its first Arizona plant start full production in 2024, but pushed back the target to 2025 due to a lack of skilled workers. The delay fueled concerns that the company might not be able to make chips in the US as efficiently as in Taiwan.

The US plans to award TSMC $6.6 billion in grants and as much as $5 billion in loans to support the chipmaker’s $65 billion in investments at three plants in Arizona.

 

[y_p_w]

Good news. Yield rates are often the thing that makes a product profitable or not. Customers pay for each wafer regardless of the yield. Also - large die parts tend to have lower yield rates because there's a higher possibility that there will be at least one point defect in each die. Things like memories have spare rows and ways to rewire, but something like a big processor might have limited ways to implement spare sections.

 

[KJSmith]

Why in the world would you build a facility that uses that much water in a water starved area???
Makes no sense at all.

I've seen estimates of up to 13 billion gallons of water a year.
Other are saying 4.8 million a day per unit....6 units planned.

The Intel plant in that area is using 8.6 million gallons a day in 4 units.

 

[Danno]

Since what, 90%+ is an automated process why would we expect any less productivity than home base Taiwan?

 

[Danno]

Why in the world would you build a facility that uses that much water in a water starved area???
Makes no sense at all.

I've seen estimates of up to 13 billion gallons of water a year.
Other are saying 4.8 million a day per unit....6 units planned.

The Intel plant in that area is using 8.6 million gallons a day in 4 units.

Water can change state but is not "used up".

Where is the inflow sourced and what is done with the water once it flows through process or is it reused in a continuous loop?

 

[PandaBear]

Why in the world would you build a facility that uses that much water in a water starved area???
Makes no sense at all.

I've seen estimates of up to 13 billion gallons of water a year.
Other are saying 4.8 million a day per unit....6 units planned.

The Intel plant in that area is using 8.6 million gallons a day in 4 units.

You can get lower cost of living and flatter land. AZ likely gave them a really good deal just to attract jobs and investments. I know Sumco got a trade zone for their wafer plant there so everything they build or equipment they purchased would not be taxed as US based.

 

[PandaBear]

Since what, 90%+ is an automated process why would we expect any less productivity than home base Taiwan?

The people who work there? Automation still need human troubleshooting a lot of problems. They may or may not share the same people as in Taiwan. TSMC is one of the best paying employers in Taiwan, but will they be paying the best in the US? Will it be too expensive? or would they have to keep flying people from Taiwan on business travel to keep the plant in US running as efficiently?

The same equipment in Samsung and Intel aren't running as efficiently as TSMC, same automation, still need the right human to make the right decisions and fix the problems for automation to work.

I know if they pay Intel they will get Intel (and if you have been following the news they aren't doing too well recently).

 

[PandaBear]

Water can change state but is not "used up".

Where is the inflow sourced and what is done with the water once it flows through process or is it reused in a continuous loop?

A lot of them gets purified and reused, but some will be discharged.

Still, unless you do not want human activity there, you will need water whether for a FAB, a data center, a power plant, or for residential and commercial activities for the people who live and work there for these industries.

Las Vegas is now a big data center hub because they have cheap solar power nearby. This is in addition to the casinos. They have figured out how to use water efficiently.

 

[y_p_w]

Since what, 90%+ is an automated process why would we expect any less productivity than home base Taiwan?

A lot of it is dialing in the proper settings based on parts analysis. At that point it's almost an art form to get it to where yield is improved, because sometimes the yield can go down if it's not done properly.

I remember when my companies were dealing with fabs, getting the yield rates up was extremely important for our profitability.

 

[Danno]

The people who work there? Automation still need human troubleshooting a lot of problems.

Without a doubt the best people from Taiwan are on site to ensure a quick and hopefully uneventful plant start up, and a stable glide path to full production.
Worked for a Fortune 50 company, that's the way it's done on plant/line ramp ups. SMEs all over the place.

 

[Jango]

Why in the world would you build a facility that uses that much water in a water starved area???
Makes no sense at all.

I've seen estimates of up to 13 billion gallons of water a year.
Other are saying 4.8 million a day per unit....6 units planned.

The Intel plant in that area is using 8.6 million gallons a day in 4 units.

Phoenix has two main water systems available to it:

1. Salt/Verde Rivers (series of lakes east/northeast of Phoenix)

Report: https://streamflow.watershedconnection.com/Dwr​

2. Central Arizona Project (CAP)

Colorado river canaled to Lake Pleasant north of Phoenix​

​

I remember reading that the Salt is not totally dependent on snow as its source and is considered to be sustainable for a long time into the future.

 

[AZjeff]

We watched this facility being built, unbelieveably huge and complex. It's located north of the metro area on land that was bare desert. They claim it will have a 90% water reclamation rate .

 

[AZjeff]

Phoenix has two main water systems available to it:

1. Salt/Verde Rivers (series of lakes east/northeast of Phoenix)

Report: https://streamflow.watershedconnection.com/Dwr​

2. Central Arizona Project (CAP)

Colorado river canaled to Lake Pleasant north of Phoenix​

​

I remember reading that the Salt is not totally dependent on snow as its source and is considered to be sustainable for a long time into the future.

CAP water is an ongoing battle for share with the other states in a water use agreement.

The Verde is one of the largest perennial streams in Arizona. There's ongoing concern as development continues in the headwater/recharge area north of where we live the Verde flow will decrease. Ongoing battle there as well.

 

[KJSmith]

Water can change state but is not "used up".

Water can exist in all 3 states....solid, liquid and vapor.

I assume when they report Intel "using" 8.6 gallons a day..... they mean using.
Recycled water isn't used.

In the picture AZjeff posted...right in front in the middle is a huge cooling tower.
That water is not reused...
Those plants also have a lot of air scrubbers.......some of that water will be lost.

 

[Danno]

Water can exist in all 3 states....solid, liquid and vapor.

I assume when they report Intel "using" 8.6 gallons a day..... they mean using.
Recycled water isn't used.

In the picture AZjeff posted...right in front in the middle is a huge cooling tower.
That water is not reused...
Those plants also have a lot of air scrubbers.......some of that water will be lost.

Just so I am clear, as an example, 1 million gallons goes into the plant and 1 million gallons or equivalent s discharged into the air or nearest point, probably a river or settling ponds. None gets cleaned, filtered and reused in their processes.

Correct?

 

[Astro14]

Water can change state but is not "used up".

Where is the inflow sourced and what is done with the water once it flows through process or is it reused in a continuous loop?

It may not change state - but it can go from fresh/potable to waste/non-potable. Not sure if that’s the case here, but useable to unusable would be a big concern in an arid climate.

 

[Jango]

This article provides some details on the water use: https://www.azcentral.com/story/opi...tsmc-arizona-water-use-recycling/74059522007/

 

[KJSmith]

Just so I am clear, as an example, 1 million gallons goes into the plant and 1 million gallons or equivalent s discharged into the air or nearest point, probably a river or settling ponds. None gets cleaned, filtered and reused in their processes.

Correct?

To me, use means use.
That article that Jango put up claims they will recycle enough to get it down to a million a day.

A lot will be lost to the atmosphere.
I'm sure they will clean the rest up as much as possible.
These plants use lots of acids.
I'm sure they will neutralize everything they can.
At the end of the day....it is a business and they will look out for their bottom line.
If it's cheaper...and it's available...they will use it.

Having super clean water is a must.
They are water hogs anyway you look at them.

The truth about how much they are using won't come out until production is up and running.

The number I would look at is how many gallons per day the state/city had to guarantee them.

 

[AZjeff]

From the linked article:

For comparison, Intel’s Arizona facilities, which employ 12,000 at four fabs with two more under construction, withdrew roughly 8.6 million gallons of water a day in 2023.

More than 80% of that water was captured after use and purified at treatment plants operated by Intel and the city of Chandler.

That water was either returned to the fabs for reuse in manufacturing or its cooling towers.

Or it was reused within the city or injected into the ground to recharge the aquifer — meaning that about 1.5 million gallons per day was consumed during manufacturing at its multiple fabs.

 

[cptbarkey]

Arizona has got problems.

https://www.charkoosta.com/news/ari...cle_900e3af6-6723-11ef-8e22-77e34b10e807.html

The proposed Mexico desalination plant and pipeline from the gulf should be prioritized.