Truth is coming out on Iraq Anti-War Movement

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quote:

Originally posted by keith:
Is that the same Halliburton that President Clinton awarded no bid contracts to after the Kosovo liberation?


You're assuming I support Clinton's action because he's a Demo, and Bush's action because he's a Repub. Wrong. Halliburton was just one example of a list of companies that would gain if we went to war. War has always been a good place to make a buck from the taxpayer. As more and more information is coming out we're finding that the premise for war was false (lie/incompetence). The fact that these individuals in the list were against the war because they would continue to profit is important information. People's reason for their position is important to help test the truth of their argument. It's coming out that the position by the Bush Admin. for going to war is not standing up to the truth. I don't think that this list proves Bush was right, it does prove that these individuals were not so righteous in their opposition to war.
 
If it is true that even a French priest would take money from Saddam Hussein, while millions of human beings in Iraq were tortured and murdered, then I think (and I was raised as a Catholic) there needs to be some serious changes in the Cahtolic Church. I am sick and tired of priests molesting children, and priests taking pay-offs. And this priest, if he did take a pay-off, obviously was not a nobody in the Church if he could arrange a meeting with the Pope. Enough.
 
quote:

Originally posted by needtoknow:
You're assuming I support Clinton's action because he's a Demo, and Bush's action because he's a Repub. Wrong. Halliburton was just one example ... yadadada

Every war has winners and losers, no news there. Saying that the war happened to benefit Halliburton requires more than baseless allegations. Certainly there is some evidence that the US intelligence data was in some areas incomplete or erroneous, and in many areas correct. No news there either, we have yet to fight the perfect error free war. Where are the 100,000 missing young men in Kosovo? Did we have a war there because of bad intelligence information? I would say yes, and still support the war because it achieved good.

I don't believe the Iraq war was conceived to support Halliburton, any more than the Kosovo liberation was to benefit Halliburton. This is pure anti-Bush nonsense, just as it could have previously been construed as anti-Clinton nonsense post Kosovo. The Iraq war is achieving good and I support it. That our enemies were taking bribes from Saddam doesn't change a thing.

Keith.
 
Actually, the war against the terrorists is being fought very cleverly. The Taliban and al Qaeda thought that they were safe in landlocked Afganistan, surrounded by Moslem countries. Afganistan had a history of being the place where the greatest world powers were defeated (England and Russia). When the Soviets were defeated in Afganistan, Osama bin Laden said that the Moslems had defeated the greatest army in the world. But guess what? The ol' USA won in Afganistan. And regardless of whatever games may have been played prior to the war, you don't see Saddam Hussein ruling in Iraq anymore. And Libya is giving up its WMD. And Syria is returning 3 billion in Iraqi funds. And Iran seems to be less hostile. I say that we are winning.

Would we be where we are right now if it had been President Gore?
 
Keith,
The war in Kosovo was for genuine humanitarian reasons after most of the world pushed the U.S. to go in. I supported that intervention for those same reasons. Had President Bush made the argument on huamitarian grounds I might have supported it. I don't think the American people would have supported it on humanitarian grounds. If I were sending my kids to die I would want the real reason first. This was a pre-emptive war supposedly fought because the country was in imminent threat, a very dangerous precedent. Germany used this reason to invade Poland. What makes this more of a problem is what happens the next time the president wants to go to war and begins to show the reasons. Is he to be believed? What if he is telling the truth but the American people don't believe him because this war came out that we didn't just make a few mistakes, we made all the mistakes.
 
The President will have credibility problems if WMDs are not found. Of course the president will have credibility problems if WMDs are found.

Doing nothing is always a choice. Choices have consequences. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that Saddam was going to be a lot uglier given 5 more years. Anybody else can speculate all they want, but doing nothing is a choice.

I'd like to relate this on a personal level. I have been afflicted with a disease for 15 years. Two years ago my doctor informed me that I was going to have colon cancer as my disease indicated it. He could not tell me whether it would develop in 6 months, 6 days or 6 weeks, but it was coming.

I had the choice to have my entire colon removed or shoot the dice with cancer. I had my entire colon removed. When I had made the choice, people remarked that I was handling it remarkably well. I said that it was an easy choice as dying from colon cancer was not a pretty alternative. It was not the dying mind you, but the manner of death. It's pretty ugly.

I'm not looking for any sympathty, respect, or anything, but to give an insight as to how one looks at choices. You have to be aware of the alternatives and be willing to live with them. Burying your head in the sand and saying that things will take care of themselves is naive. I wish that it would work but it doesn't.

I try to tell my friends who smoke the same thing. It's not the years off your life that matters, it's the quality of those tears you have remaining.

You can believe that this war was wrong, but I believe that it could be no more wrong than doing nothing. JMO

P.S. I hope Bob recovers rapidly and that anyone who has a loved one here who is sick gets well real soon.!

[ January 31, 2004, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: GROUCHO MARX ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by needtoknow:
If I were sending my kids to die I would want the real reason first. .

Well-every time I see this phrase I think-Bush hating Democrat. We have no idea how you felt under Clinton bc you didn't say it then. We have no idea how you would feel in the future bc we are not there. We do know how you feel now (See official DemocRat party line)

So you would not mind sending your kids to die in Kosovo?? Since it was Clinton who suposedly sent them to help people in a humanatarian way (Read-"not defending "the U.S.). I'm not interested in having my kids (notice I didn't say sent-they are not passive figures here-they inlisted As my daughter inlisted in the Army
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In my mind the reason they are there is to safeguard and protect us. (in my mind anyway)

And as Keith pointed out. Someone always benefits in a war. So that would mean you would send"your kids" into battle naked-without tanks and guns???? (someone would benefit by selling the U.S. cloathes, armor, helmits, guns and tanks)
 
This will be my last post on this topic. I can hear the clapping already. You can't say this was a do nothing or war decision. Many things could have been done. We were already doing many of them. We had control of the air as it was and were doing inspections. In time Saddams regime would have collasped from within just as Russia's did.
 
"In time Saddams regime would have collasped from within just as Russia's did. "

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needtoknow, that is your speculation and you are entitled to it. My speculation is that war could only have been avoided if the rest of the world spoke with one voice for Saddam to leave.

It's a shame that this did not happen.
 
If what I am seeing here is the best the anti Bush crowd can come up with, he is going to win in a landslide. Maybe even bring in enough senators to clean up the judiciary.
 
Groucho Marx, my Mom had colon cancer and had her colon removed. It was a very difficult time for us all. I know what you have gone through.

labman, I really believe that we are best off with President Bush (and I am a Democrat, although the Democratic Party has no use for moderates like me). Bush is not perfect, but look at the alternatives. And really, with the Democratic Party controlled by strange radical people, a landslide victory by the Republicans would probably be good for the country. Elect enough Republican senators so that we can get rid of oddball liberal judges who try to rule from the bench with screwball court decisions. And there is need for a new political party to replace the Democratic Party. A party that is truly for the people (all of the people-not just some rich liberals living in rich neighborhoods).
 
And now, only people who supported the war gain financially. But that's alright.

I'm still confused about what the people of Iraq want/ed.

They apparently had little to no restriction on owning assault rifles and ammunition, were reportedly armed to the hilt, and didn't try the very thing that the U.S. second ammendment is supposed t guarantee.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Shannow:
And now, only people who supported the war gain financially. But that's alright.

I'm still confused about what the people of Iraq want/ed.

They apparently had little to no restriction on owning assault rifles and ammunition, were reportedly armed to the hilt, and didn't try the very thing that the U.S. second ammendment is supposed t guarantee.


You have a valid point-I have read a few books includint 90% of the Koran. And the more I read the less I understand. One thing I have concluded (mostly on my own-but probably others have reached this conclusion) is that Muslim folks behave as a group influenced by an individual (however he gets his influence-it varies) and individual thought/action is not the norm.
 
It just proves what we knew all along. Any one with half a brain knew that those people reseting this push to liberate Irag were on the take. The human rights violations alone should have been enough to anger the world! But at last who cares about state sponsored rape, torture and terrorist suport so long as money is being made!

People always accuse the USA of being oil mongers! Well if you look around even though we consume a lot of crude our oil and gas prices are some of the best around the world! We do not have an exclusive supplier! We buy from the same people that the rest of the world buys from! Even if we were oil mongers the rest of the world benifits far more then we do!
 
What about all the bribery and strong-arming by the US Govt to get countries to join their coallition??

Does that make the news on the OT forum?
 
quote:

Originally posted by giant_robo:
What about all the bribery and strong-arming by the US Govt to get countries to join their coallition??

Does that make the news on the OT forum?


That's been known to anyone who has watched T.V. or reads news stories. I think the point is that Sadam was "evil". And people took money from this evil man to allow him to keep his murdurous regeme in power, to kill his people and threaten (and invade) his neighbors. Thats whats news.
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People, companies, governments pay, bribe, cajole, etc other people, companies,countries all the time for the purpose of doing what the first party wants. That's not news that's reality.

I assume you are of the opinion that the U.S. is "evil" because we tried to get folks to do what they should have done of their own free will.
 
quote:

Originally posted by GROUCHO MARX:
I had the choice to have my entire colon removed or shoot the dice with cancer. I had my entire colon removed.

I totally understand, and wish you well. Four years ago I was very sick and being tested for ALS (Lou Gehrigs) and even rarer yet equally terminal diseases. My nervous system was shutting down. Selfishness goes out the window in a heartbeat, and I took the path that seemed to offer the best outcome for my wife and children. Fortunately, one surgery later, I am doing well and enjoying life with my family. Every day is a joy, and I sincerely feel sorry for the irrational Bush haters.

The experience gave me a new outlook. Waiting 12 years while Saddam was filling up the mass graves and bribing the inept UN was a much bigger mistake than taking him out. I love it that what is left of the Taliban is banished to living in mud holes, Saddam capitulated like the coward he is, and Al Qaeda is getting dismantled one dirtbag at a time. Now we need to take care of billionaire Egyptian terrorist Yasser Arafat and give the expanded region some hope for the future.

Keith.
 
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