Exactly. I'll be glad to add an econobox to my fleet just as soon as someone drops one off and all I need to pay is for operation and maintenance.
Truck & SUV "solution" to Fuel Prices/Demand
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"...spending 30,000 to save 1300 is just plain stupid no matter how you put a pencil to it...."
I'm not familiar with gas vs diesel Excursions but a coworker with a gas engined F250 said that she gets 10 mpg when it's running well and they get 2 mpg towing their large boat. I considered borrowing a friend's Suburban for a trip instead of taking two cars, but the two Tarus sedans got a combined 14 mpg while the Suburban was getting 10 mpg. For my Dodge truck the Hemi seems to often get 10 mpg in town while I get 17 t o18 mpg in town with the diesel. Another consideration is that some friends and neighbors have had gas engined trucks not make it to 100k miles, while I'm expecting 500k miles from my truck.
Using $3 a gal, some stations around here are getting $3.25 for gas while diesel is currently less than $3 now, and assuming 10 mpg vs 17.5 mpg, a diesel at an extra $4k pays for itself in less than 25k miles of driving. The diesel pays for my truck at 150k miles, as I got my 4x4 3/4 ton quad cab diesel at a price lower than I've heard anywhere so far, which was less than $26k. When comparing $3 a gal for gas and 90 cents for diesel one pays for a $30k vehicle in less than 125k miles.
I'm not familiar with gas vs diesel Excursions but a coworker with a gas engined F250 said that she gets 10 mpg when it's running well and they get 2 mpg towing their large boat. I considered borrowing a friend's Suburban for a trip instead of taking two cars, but the two Tarus sedans got a combined 14 mpg while the Suburban was getting 10 mpg. For my Dodge truck the Hemi seems to often get 10 mpg in town while I get 17 t o18 mpg in town with the diesel. Another consideration is that some friends and neighbors have had gas engined trucks not make it to 100k miles, while I'm expecting 500k miles from my truck.
Using $3 a gal, some stations around here are getting $3.25 for gas while diesel is currently less than $3 now, and assuming 10 mpg vs 17.5 mpg, a diesel at an extra $4k pays for itself in less than 25k miles of driving. The diesel pays for my truck at 150k miles, as I got my 4x4 3/4 ton quad cab diesel at a price lower than I've heard anywhere so far, which was less than $26k. When comparing $3 a gal for gas and 90 cents for diesel one pays for a $30k vehicle in less than 125k miles.
C'mon guys.... y'all know you should park those behemouths and start putt putt putting down the motorway on your 90cc putt putt machine with two wheels (unless yah' gots four if training wheels are added).
Get with the program, buckaroos.
Just be sure you dress warmly when it's 10-below and the arctic winds are battering your helmeted head.
Get with the program, buckaroos.
Just be sure you dress warmly when it's 10-below and the arctic winds are battering your helmeted head.
A moment of introspection:
In most of the (3rd?) World, people spend the majority of their income on food, but not here. It goes to follow, that we have "too much" disposable income and have (for the most part) lost the ability to prioritze our resources/assets. Can a person who spends most of their money on food make a more logical decision of which mode of transportation makes "sense" than spoiled charge-it-all Americans whose priority is not to survive, but to impress their neighbours? I think maybe we are not as "smart" as we think we are. Myself, I would tend towards the conservative view of transportation being a ~basic~ need and approach it in a ~basic~ manner that does not consume or cost excessively. Last time I checked, most of the World drives smaller cars/motorcycles and bikes. I guess they don't know that "bigger is better".
In most of the (3rd?) World, people spend the majority of their income on food, but not here. It goes to follow, that we have "too much" disposable income and have (for the most part) lost the ability to prioritze our resources/assets. Can a person who spends most of their money on food make a more logical decision of which mode of transportation makes "sense" than spoiled charge-it-all Americans whose priority is not to survive, but to impress their neighbours? I think maybe we are not as "smart" as we think we are. Myself, I would tend towards the conservative view of transportation being a ~basic~ need and approach it in a ~basic~ manner that does not consume or cost excessively. Last time I checked, most of the World drives smaller cars/motorcycles and bikes. I guess they don't know that "bigger is better".
Auto-Union,
Just because these 3rd world countries have chosen to overpopulate and waste their resources doing so does not mean that I as an American or anyone else should reduce our choices based on the fact that others do not have those choices. America has saved the world, rebuilt the world several times over, as well as sent money and medicine to the rest of the world. Only due to the fact that our culture has generated such incredible wealth makes it possible for these things to be done. We are hated over much of the world, but I have yet to see this hate stop 3rd world countries from gleefully taking what we give them. Therefore, their limited choices should never be the basis upon which we base our decisions.
Dan
Just because these 3rd world countries have chosen to overpopulate and waste their resources doing so does not mean that I as an American or anyone else should reduce our choices based on the fact that others do not have those choices. America has saved the world, rebuilt the world several times over, as well as sent money and medicine to the rest of the world. Only due to the fact that our culture has generated such incredible wealth makes it possible for these things to be done. We are hated over much of the world, but I have yet to see this hate stop 3rd world countries from gleefully taking what we give them. Therefore, their limited choices should never be the basis upon which we base our decisions.
Dan
Addedenum:
If you live in one of the 3rd world cesspools, stay home and fix it, dont come running this way and bring your corruption, overpopulation, and social ills my way.
Diseases that were wiped out in America are coming back because these 3rd world cesspools wont treat their sickness, they just let them die or live spreading disease. Why should we as americans suffer for this?
Rant mode off..
Dan
[ July 12, 2006, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: Dan4510 ]
If you live in one of the 3rd world cesspools, stay home and fix it, dont come running this way and bring your corruption, overpopulation, and social ills my way.
Diseases that were wiped out in America are coming back because these 3rd world cesspools wont treat their sickness, they just let them die or live spreading disease. Why should we as americans suffer for this?
Rant mode off..
Dan
[ July 12, 2006, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: Dan4510 ]
We shouldn't suffer, but those with a lot of power, also have a lot of responsibility. We have helped other countries and people a great deal, although not always without heavy strings attached, and we should continue.
I'm not talking about helping the governements of other countries, but the people who need it. Many times our aid is diverted and pocketed by people other than those who need it.
Overpopulation, poverty and disease are not always what people choose, but what they are given by someone more powerful than they are.
I'm not talking about helping the governements of other countries, but the people who need it. Many times our aid is diverted and pocketed by people other than those who need it.
Overpopulation, poverty and disease are not always what people choose, but what they are given by someone more powerful than they are.
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I've stopped using public transportation because of the filth and gag-inducing stench on our city buses. From what I can tell the folks who're stinking up the buses are almost exclusively homebred. We got 7-8,000 known (the actual number is much higher) homeless living here in SF. If they can't get a hold of piece of soap in our affluent society, how can we expect 3rd world countries to afford preventive healthcare for their people?
"C'mon guys.... y'all know you should park those behemouths and start putt putt putting down the motorway on your 90cc putt putt machine with two wheels.."
Been there, done that, but with a few more cc's. Motorcycles were a primary mode of transportation for almots 20 years.
Been there, done that, but with a few more cc's. Motorcycles were a primary mode of transportation for almots 20 years.
"I would tend towards the conservative view of transportation being a ~basic~ need and approach it in a ~basic~ manner that does not consume or cost excessively."
I agree, which is why I have a 3/4 ton diesel pickup. Our Honda Civic was worn out at 120k miles, so econoboxes don't make sense for us as they're 'throw away' vehicles, and at over 15k a pop these days a stupid choice for for so little life.
We were driving two Taurus sedans places, getting a combined 14 mpg on the highway and 10 mpg in town, se we looked at bigger vehicles. I tried to avoid a full sized truck but needed the space, as minivans and SUVs when using three row seating don't have much cargo space left. For me a big vehicle meant I needed a diesel, if I got a diesel I wanted a Cummins, so the choices quickly narrowed to a Dodge 3/4 ton quad cab 4x4 pickup, (a wise man once said that 2wd diesel pickups are the 2nd worst snow vehicle know nto man, the 1st being a Harley :^). I got for about what some friends paid for their Subarus and fancy minivans, and they don't get much better mileage than I do. Mine will last longer too.
I agree, which is why I have a 3/4 ton diesel pickup. Our Honda Civic was worn out at 120k miles, so econoboxes don't make sense for us as they're 'throw away' vehicles, and at over 15k a pop these days a stupid choice for for so little life.
We were driving two Taurus sedans places, getting a combined 14 mpg on the highway and 10 mpg in town, se we looked at bigger vehicles. I tried to avoid a full sized truck but needed the space, as minivans and SUVs when using three row seating don't have much cargo space left. For me a big vehicle meant I needed a diesel, if I got a diesel I wanted a Cummins, so the choices quickly narrowed to a Dodge 3/4 ton quad cab 4x4 pickup, (a wise man once said that 2wd diesel pickups are the 2nd worst snow vehicle know nto man, the 1st being a Harley :^). I got for about what some friends paid for their Subarus and fancy minivans, and they don't get much better mileage than I do. Mine will last longer too.
What I'm saying is that if the choice is food or gas, people (here) might make more realistic/responsible choices. The difference here is not that we have such great wealth, but we have credit cards to back up our poor decisions. I'm chewing through $250 in gas a month, $350 if I kept my old car, that is insane and comparable to my food costs.
Just another jab at public trans, it seems like those huge busses running ALL night every 20 min past my Phila home have like 3-4-5 people in them. Is that efficient? Do they really need to run those monster buses all night?
Just another jab at public trans, it seems like those huge busses running ALL night every 20 min past my Phila home have like 3-4-5 people in them. Is that efficient? Do they really need to run those monster buses all night?
Gas Consumption Remains Strong Despite High Prices
A tank of gas is still much less than a standard cell phone bill.
A tank of gas is still much less than a standard cell phone bill.
JHZR2
Staff member
yeah, when your credit score is 678 (probably lower), you owe $20k on your vehicle and another $8k in credit card bills... the ARM rate is creeping up and you have bills to pay...
Got to feed that SUV to get to and from work, 35 miles away... No ifs ands or buts. yet their 'need' for these low economy vehicles i swhat causes a good portion of the leverage that is exerted on us creating disproportionate fuel prices (i.e. speculation, trading on supposed uncertainty, and station price gouging).
And yet they still insist on these pricey cellphone plans... thats a great point!
JMH
P.S. in the likely chance that I offend someone... 'you' does not mean anyone, its justa manner of speech.
Got to feed that SUV to get to and from work, 35 miles away... No ifs ands or buts. yet their 'need' for these low economy vehicles i swhat causes a good portion of the leverage that is exerted on us creating disproportionate fuel prices (i.e. speculation, trading on supposed uncertainty, and station price gouging).
And yet they still insist on these pricey cellphone plans... thats a great point!
JMH
P.S. in the likely chance that I offend someone... 'you' does not mean anyone, its justa manner of speech.
I can imagine the ARM holder who has sunken into debt and cannot refinance the home due to a poor FICO and negative equity. But unfortunately it will happen to a few. The Mortgage companies were really pushing the ARMS too. It's an excellent tool to sell people homes that they had no chance of paying off.
Now many of thiose ARMS are coming to term.
If I owned any interst in finance companies I am thinking sell. There are going to be homes on the market that cannot be sold for the price owed as housing is beggining to correct itself.
I understand in many states your home and earnings from the sale of such are not sheltered from creditor leansand third party siezure. Nasty business.
I'll burn an extra tank or two on my two weeks off starting tommorow in each my 4 runner and Taco. I love the looks of my neighbors faces as they see me loading my kayak and fishing gear every morning as they leave for work(we always have friendly waves). I do worry about them working so hard and commuting so much. That was their choice though.
If I owned any interst in finance companies I am thinking sell. There are going to be homes on the market that cannot be sold for the price owed as housing is beggining to correct itself.
I understand in many states your home and earnings from the sale of such are not sheltered from creditor leansand third party siezure. Nasty business.
I'll burn an extra tank or two on my two weeks off starting tommorow in each my 4 runner and Taco. I love the looks of my neighbors faces as they see me loading my kayak and fishing gear every morning as they leave for work(we always have friendly waves). I do worry about them working so hard and commuting so much. That was their choice though.
See below for one list of 'evil vehicles', which for brevity has been trimmed to smaller vehicles that get as bad or worse EPA city mileage as my 3/4 ton diesel pickup. I also deleted a of duplicate models that had different transmissions and such. It's obvious that 'evil fuel consumption' doesn't always mean large, and it's also obvious that 'fuel thrifty Europeans' is also off the mark.
Make - Model - City mpg
LAMBORGHINI L-140/141 GALLARD0 - 9
FERRARI 360 MODENA/SPIDER/CHALLENGE - 10
FERRARI FERRARI 575 M MARANELLO - 10
LAMBORGHINI L-147/148 MURCIELAGO - 10
PORSCHE CARRERA GT - 10
BENTLEY BENTLEY ARNAGE - 10
FERRARI FERRARI 612 SCAGLIETTI - 10
ASTON MARTIN DB9 - 11
ASTON MARTIN DB9 VOLANTE - 11
ASTON MARTIN V12 VANQUISH S - 11
BENTLEY CONTINENTAL GT - 11
DODGE VIPER CONVERTIBLE - 12
MASERATI SPYDER CAMBIOCORSA/SPYDER GT - 12
MASERATI COUPE & GRANSPORT - 12
MERCEDES-BENZ CL65 AMG - 12
ROLLS-ROYCE PHANTOM - 12
FORD GT 2WD - 13
"MERCEDES-BENZ SLR - 13"
MERCEDES-BENZ SL600 - 13
MERCEDES-BENZ SL55 AMG - 14
PORSCHE TURBO 4 911 TURBO - 14
MERCEDES-BENZ C240 FFV - 14
MERCEDES-BENZ C320 FFV - 14
MERCEDES-BENZ C320 SPORTS COUPE FFV - 14
MERCEDES-BENZ CL55 AMG - 14
MERCEDES-BENZ E55 AMG - 14
PORSCHE CARRERA 2 911 GT3 - 15
PORSCHE TURBO 2 911 GT2 - 15
AUDI S4 CABRIOLET - 15
BMW 645CI CONVERTIBLE - 15
AUDI S4 - 15
CHRYSLER SEBRING CONVERTIBLE - 15
CADILLAC CTS - 15
CHRYSLER SEBRING 4-DR - 15
DODGE STRATUS 4-DR - 15
LINCOLN-MERCURY SABLE - 15
MERCEDES-BENZ SL500 - 16
MERCEDES-BENZ SLK55 AMG - 16
BMW M3 CONVERTIBLE - 16
JAGUAR JAGUAR XKR CONVERTIBLE - 16
MERCEDES-BENZ CLK55 AMG - 16
MERCEDES-BENZ C55 AMG - 16
MERCEDES-BENZ CL500 - 16
BMW 545I - 16
CADILLAC STS AWD - 16
MERCEDES-BENZ E500 4MATIC - 16
ACURA NSX - 17
CADILLAC XLR - 17
CHRYSLER CROSSFIRE COUPE - 17
CHRYSLER CROSSFIRE ROADSTER - 17
FORD THUNDERBIRD - 17
PORSCHE CARRERA 4 CABRIOLET - 17
PORSCHE CARRERA 4 S COUPE - 17
FORD MUSTANG - 17
MERCEDES-BENZ CLK500 - 17
INFINITI G35 - 17
MERCEDES-BENZ C320 SPORTS COUPE - 17
PONTIAC GTO - 17
AUDI A6 QUATTRO - 17
INFINITI Q45 - 17
JAGUAR JAGUAR S-TYPE R - 17
LINCOLN-MERCURY LS - 17
MERCEDES-BENZ E500 - 17
MITSUBISHI DIAMANTE SEDAN - 17
CHEVROLET CORVETTE - 18
MERCEDES-BENZ SLK350 - 18
NISSAN 350Z ROADSTER - 18
BMW 325CI CONVERTIBLE - 18
JAGUAR JAGUAR XK8 CONVERTIBLE - 18
LEXUS SC 430 - 18
PORSCHE TARGA - 18
PORSCHE TARGA KIT - 18
AUDI A4 CABRIOLET QUATTRO - 18
HYUNDAI TIBURON - 18
MAZDA MAZDA RX-8 - 18
SUBARU IMPREZA AWD - 18
AUDI A4 QUATTRO - 18
BMW 330XI - 18
JAGUAR JAGUAR X-TYPE - 18
LEXUS IS 300 - 18
VOLVO S60 R AWD - 18
ACURA RL - 18
AUDI A8 - 18
HYUNDAI XG350 - 18
PONTIAC GRAND PRIX - 18
VOLVO S80 FWD - 18
Make - Model - City mpg
LAMBORGHINI L-140/141 GALLARD0 - 9
FERRARI 360 MODENA/SPIDER/CHALLENGE - 10
FERRARI FERRARI 575 M MARANELLO - 10
LAMBORGHINI L-147/148 MURCIELAGO - 10
PORSCHE CARRERA GT - 10
BENTLEY BENTLEY ARNAGE - 10
FERRARI FERRARI 612 SCAGLIETTI - 10
ASTON MARTIN DB9 - 11
ASTON MARTIN DB9 VOLANTE - 11
ASTON MARTIN V12 VANQUISH S - 11
BENTLEY CONTINENTAL GT - 11
DODGE VIPER CONVERTIBLE - 12
MASERATI SPYDER CAMBIOCORSA/SPYDER GT - 12
MASERATI COUPE & GRANSPORT - 12
MERCEDES-BENZ CL65 AMG - 12
ROLLS-ROYCE PHANTOM - 12
FORD GT 2WD - 13
"MERCEDES-BENZ SLR - 13"
MERCEDES-BENZ SL600 - 13
MERCEDES-BENZ SL55 AMG - 14
PORSCHE TURBO 4 911 TURBO - 14
MERCEDES-BENZ C240 FFV - 14
MERCEDES-BENZ C320 FFV - 14
MERCEDES-BENZ C320 SPORTS COUPE FFV - 14
MERCEDES-BENZ CL55 AMG - 14
MERCEDES-BENZ E55 AMG - 14
PORSCHE CARRERA 2 911 GT3 - 15
PORSCHE TURBO 2 911 GT2 - 15
AUDI S4 CABRIOLET - 15
BMW 645CI CONVERTIBLE - 15
AUDI S4 - 15
CHRYSLER SEBRING CONVERTIBLE - 15
CADILLAC CTS - 15
CHRYSLER SEBRING 4-DR - 15
DODGE STRATUS 4-DR - 15
LINCOLN-MERCURY SABLE - 15
MERCEDES-BENZ SL500 - 16
MERCEDES-BENZ SLK55 AMG - 16
BMW M3 CONVERTIBLE - 16
JAGUAR JAGUAR XKR CONVERTIBLE - 16
MERCEDES-BENZ CLK55 AMG - 16
MERCEDES-BENZ C55 AMG - 16
MERCEDES-BENZ CL500 - 16
BMW 545I - 16
CADILLAC STS AWD - 16
MERCEDES-BENZ E500 4MATIC - 16
ACURA NSX - 17
CADILLAC XLR - 17
CHRYSLER CROSSFIRE COUPE - 17
CHRYSLER CROSSFIRE ROADSTER - 17
FORD THUNDERBIRD - 17
PORSCHE CARRERA 4 CABRIOLET - 17
PORSCHE CARRERA 4 S COUPE - 17
FORD MUSTANG - 17
MERCEDES-BENZ CLK500 - 17
INFINITI G35 - 17
MERCEDES-BENZ C320 SPORTS COUPE - 17
PONTIAC GTO - 17
AUDI A6 QUATTRO - 17
INFINITI Q45 - 17
JAGUAR JAGUAR S-TYPE R - 17
LINCOLN-MERCURY LS - 17
MERCEDES-BENZ E500 - 17
MITSUBISHI DIAMANTE SEDAN - 17
CHEVROLET CORVETTE - 18
MERCEDES-BENZ SLK350 - 18
NISSAN 350Z ROADSTER - 18
BMW 325CI CONVERTIBLE - 18
JAGUAR JAGUAR XK8 CONVERTIBLE - 18
LEXUS SC 430 - 18
PORSCHE TARGA - 18
PORSCHE TARGA KIT - 18
AUDI A4 CABRIOLET QUATTRO - 18
HYUNDAI TIBURON - 18
MAZDA MAZDA RX-8 - 18
SUBARU IMPREZA AWD - 18
AUDI A4 QUATTRO - 18
BMW 330XI - 18
JAGUAR JAGUAR X-TYPE - 18
LEXUS IS 300 - 18
VOLVO S60 R AWD - 18
ACURA RL - 18
AUDI A8 - 18
HYUNDAI XG350 - 18
PONTIAC GRAND PRIX - 18
VOLVO S80 FWD - 18
If you want to talk "fuel thrifty" Euro cars, they are not among the ones sold here. Try Peugeot 206, Citroens, etc. For some reason, we do not have access to true Euro economy cars. Even the Golf here has the 5cyl verses other smaller VWs like the Polo.
1996 Jeep Cherokee-- av. 21 combined.
JHZR2
Staff member
lol, SEPTA is one of the worst PT deals out there.. IMO.
Ever take the R1 to the airport??? From center city it is still $5.50...
The #17 bus from the Navy yard to Broad and Pattison? $2.60 for maybe 1 mile?
Its nice to have, but there isnt enough $$$ going into the system from ridership to make it a good deal. My fiancee takes the PATCO into phila. $4.30 round trip. If it werent for parking costs, it would be cheaper for her to drive. Instead she bikes to the station and takes the train.
JMH
Ever take the R1 to the airport??? From center city it is still $5.50...
The #17 bus from the Navy yard to Broad and Pattison? $2.60 for maybe 1 mile?
Its nice to have, but there isnt enough $$$ going into the system from ridership to make it a good deal. My fiancee takes the PATCO into phila. $4.30 round trip. If it werent for parking costs, it would be cheaper for her to drive. Instead she bikes to the station and takes the train.
JMH
JHZR2
Staff member
yep, I dont own any of the 'evil cars' on the list.
Id like to buy a corvette z06 someday as a weekend fun car to drive around... its at 18 (maybe less)... its evil... I might not be able to get it if the evil SUV bashers get their way and dont allow people their social freedom to buy cars under 30 MPG... Oh wait, Ill be using it on the weekends and will have another more economical car for daily driving... plus even the vette will equal 1sttruck's city economy number... phew, I guess Im OK...
One thing I will say is that many of these cars on this list arent exactly the type of cars that are daily drivers for people with one car and a 35+ mile commute everyday...
That said, there are a lot of 'reasonable' cars on there that are at the upper end of the poor range of fuel economy, and are very popular (A4 quattro for example).
1sttruck, you know that I like and appreciate your truck setup... but youre comparing your driving skill to the EPA test. I wonder if we putyour truck on the EPA test run, what it would qualify for... 18?!? 12?!? Just curious, as we will need to buy a CTD RAM for use on a horse farm in a few years.
Whats that??? JMH is buying a second pickup truck?!? but I thought he hated trucks and SUVs?!?
LOL
JMH
Id like to buy a corvette z06 someday as a weekend fun car to drive around... its at 18 (maybe less)... its evil... I might not be able to get it if the evil SUV bashers get their way and dont allow people their social freedom to buy cars under 30 MPG... Oh wait, Ill be using it on the weekends and will have another more economical car for daily driving... plus even the vette will equal 1sttruck's city economy number... phew, I guess Im OK...
One thing I will say is that many of these cars on this list arent exactly the type of cars that are daily drivers for people with one car and a 35+ mile commute everyday...
That said, there are a lot of 'reasonable' cars on there that are at the upper end of the poor range of fuel economy, and are very popular (A4 quattro for example).
1sttruck, you know that I like and appreciate your truck setup... but youre comparing your driving skill to the EPA test. I wonder if we putyour truck on the EPA test run, what it would qualify for... 18?!? 12?!? Just curious, as we will need to buy a CTD RAM for use on a horse farm in a few years.
Whats that??? JMH is buying a second pickup truck?!? but I thought he hated trucks and SUVs?!?
LOL
JMH
The truly evil part is the $60,000 worth of resources and energy that it took to make that car in the first place. The fuel used directly by you to drive it pales in comparison!
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