Transmission Failure After Valvoline MaxLife

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"Results indicate that sample formulation is in compliance with the additive package specifications for the Valvoline MaxLife Dex/Merc ATF. Sample does indicate a significant increase in Iron, indicating potential wear inside the transmission, however as a result of the Valvoline product not showing any signs of failure, this wear has been attributed to the older fluid in the system. This is also evident from the detection of Zinc in the sample, as Zinc is not an additive utilized in the Valvoline MaxLife Dex/Merc ATF product."

The evidence is quite clear in the very first post. I'm still scratching my head here trying to figure out why the OP thinks that it's Valvolene's responsibility to cover the repair.
21.gif
 
--This, by far, has to be the dumbest comment ever written in the English language.--

Someone could say the exact same thing for your original post, blaming a fluid/company without any actual evidence to prove your point, "pay for my mistake, because you are a large conglomerate, because it is your fluids fault, not mechanical, not owner neglect, just the fluid!"

You need more to prove Valvoline owes you a cent, not just a UOA.

Seriously people, lets move along here!
 
The evidence is quite clear in the very first post. I'm still scratching my head here trying to figure out why the OP thinks that it's Valvolene's responsibility to cover the repair.

I strongly agree - the OP left in a conventional DexIII in his unit for for too long for his use/climate/purpose - and would like someone else to pay for his mistake.

Someone please lock this thread, it is full of hearsay and nothing new.
 
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Really? What signs of failure do you think brand new fluid would show? Their respon


Excellent question. Here is a sample transmission UOA from Blackstone. Did your lab results include viscosity information?

Put yourself in their shoes. A guy turns in a fluid with elements (Zinc) that is not contained in their fluid. Red Flag? Did this guy put engine oil or aftermarket additives in his tranny, and is now trying to make us pay for his mistake??

D41621%20Trans%20report%201.jpg
 
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Quote:
Why did you not pay to have the old transmission taken apart(Maybe 1-2 hours labor)?

Having been through similar experience, I can tell you that unless you personally take off the transmission in your driveway and open it up, there is not a mechanic in the world who is going to take apart transmission for diagnostic work. This is definitely true for manual transmission as I could not even get the transmission shop to agree to open up my busted transmission for post mortem. They wanted a replacement transmission in hand before removing the broken one so that it would not tie any of their bay unnecessarily. In my case, the problem was straightforward. It would not go in 1st or 2nd. Compared to that problem, OP's auto post-mortem would be lot more difficult.

In theory, post-mortem is a good idea but logistically it is just not possible.
 
4L60E's are notorious for failure at the most in-opportune times. Some go forever, some die just outside of warranty.

Look at all of the revisions, look at all of the software cheats GM installed into the TCM/ECM to keep em alive.

I've got two under my care, one in a '03 Safari AWD and one in a '03 Sonoma. The Safari has almost 280,000km on it, and the tranny is still solid, the Sonoma is close to 60,000km, and it's tranny has issues.

I've got the Maxlife Dex/Merc in two Sunfires along with(290,000km and 320,000km) both are 2.2L with the 4T40E. Both multiple changes, both have their ATF cooling lines replaced. No problems from them shifting or doing their thing.

In all honesty, from what it sounds like, it sounds like your 4L60E got bit by any of the very numerous hard faults that can bite a transmission, and cause a massive failure.


-> Now let's have a logical look at this problem:


You experienced a 3/4 failure, burned the band because of a lack of pressure, but retained 1st and 2nd gears.


In my opinion, it sounds like the piston that applies pressure to the band for 3rd/4th let go, which caused the band to slip(the bands in these trans are very sensitive to pressure or lack there of), and that's why the fluid burned.


Here is a Sonnax PDF for their replacement/upgraded part:

http://www.sonnax.com/system/announcement/77998-03K.pdf

Quote:
In GM 4L60-E, 4L65-E and 4L70-E units it is common to have poor shift quality, burnt
bands or clutches due to accumulator piston wear. Repeated reciprocation of the accumulator
piston causes wear at the piston pin bore interface. After this wear reaches a critical point,
fluid loss through the piston pin bore cannot be compensated due to lack of pump volume.
In addition, the piston can get cocked and gall the accumulator bore due to the pin bore wear
or the spring bottoming out. To prevent these conditions in the 1-2 or 3-4 accumulator bores,
Sonnax offers pinless accumulator piston kit 77998-03K.


Here's a link to the other Sonnax parts for your 4L60-E:

http://www.sonnax.com/product-lines/tran...duct_line=trans

It really, does not sound like a fluid caused this failure. So I'm not sure what to tell you beyond, research any of the numerous shift improver kits that are available for these transmissions, and install the one that you like the best on your transmission.
 
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Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Sorry to hear bud. Do you know about how many miles were driven between each drain and fill? Thanks!


Just a question for ya: How many miles should be driven between each drain and fill?

(I myself did three in 1000 miles, and I feel as though that may have been too much. Still, the trans appears to be shifting better every time driven, whether so hard I smell something or so easy it gets 22MPGs...)

I used MOSTLY Maxlife for my drain and fills..............

This is mine here, just for reference (and so it doesn't get buried.)
 
You only need to drive enough to go through all the gears and into OD lockup; a 5 minute spin on the nearby Interstate does it for me. I use MaxLife DexMerc also.

Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Just a question for ya: How many miles should be driven between each drain and fill?
 
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Less than 300. The last fill had less than 40.


Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Sorry to hear bud. Do you know about how many miles were driven between each drain and fill? Thanks!
 
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
This, by far, has to be the dumbest comment ever written in the English language.
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
OilChanger,

How do you think Valvolene should have handled this incident?
HONOR THEIR WARRANTY AND PAY THE $2700.


01.gif
 
Originally Posted By: gamefoo21

-> Now let's have a logical look at this problem:


You experienced a 3/4 failure, burned the band because of a lack of pressure, but retained 1st and 2nd gears.


In my opinion, it sounds like the piston that applies pressure to the band for 3rd/4th let go, which caused the band to slip(the bands in these trans are very sensitive to pressure or lack there of), and that's why the fluid burned.


Here is a Sonnax PDF for their replacement/upgraded part:

http://www.sonnax.com/system/announcement/77998-03K.pdf

Quote:
In GM 4L60-E, 4L65-E and 4L70-E units it is common to have poor shift quality, burnt
bands or clutches due to accumulator piston wear. Repeated reciprocation of the accumulator
piston causes wear at the piston pin bore interface. After this wear reaches a critical point,
fluid loss through the piston pin bore cannot be compensated due to lack of pump volume.
In addition, the piston can get cocked and gall the accumulator bore due to the pin bore wear
or the spring bottoming out. To prevent these conditions in the 1-2 or 3-4 accumulator bores,
Sonnax offers pinless accumulator piston kit 77998-03K.


Here's a link to the other Sonnax parts for your 4L60-E:

http://www.sonnax.com/product-lines/tran...duct_line=trans

It really, does not sound like a fluid caused this failure. So I'm not sure what to tell you beyond, research any of the numerous shift improver kits that are available for these transmissions, and install the one that you like the best on your transmission.


Great to see someone who is expert explain what happened.

Come on OP, let go of your hate for Valvoline. It does you no good.
 
Originally Posted By: nicholas
-To be precise, the capacity of his transmission is 11.2 quarts. If he changed a gallon 4 times, that works out to 17.1% factory fluid still in there.-

How are you calculating this ?

After 4 drain and fills I calculated --73.9%-- new fluid in the trans case. Please remember each subsequent drain/fill is diluted as well.
26.1% old fluid still resides inside the unit.


Just did it again and I get 17.1% still

Drain & Fill 1 results in 7.2 old and 4 new

DF2 results in 4.6 old and 6.6 new

DF3 3 and 8.2

DF4 1.9 and 9.3

1.9/11.2 = 17.1%
 
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Less than 300. The last fill had less than 40.


I'm in Cleveland but was listening to The Car Show which broadcasts from your city Detroit a few weeks ago. Their advice to those having transmission issues was to go 500 miles between drain and fills. Since you want a slow gentle cleaning since the atf is loaded with detergents. I know you weren't having issues but the FF was in there for awhile.

I have an 05 Toyota Matrix with 63k and the FF still in there. So I've learned some things from this thread.

Here's the link to the radio show(not that I agree with them 100% of the time but enjoy the show): http://www.thecarshow.com/
 
Originally Posted By: Falken
Now, I am not saying a trans is like a gold fish, and if you take one from a dirty tank that it lived in it's whole life then put it in a pristine tank only to kill it,


I like the goldfish analogy. Since I ran into this issue with some fancy fantail goldfish and it reminds of atf. I gave my dad a 5 gallon tank with goldfish and after 4 months it was covered with algae and you could barely see the fish anymore. I went online and did some research. It said to drain 20-25% of the water out every 24 hours till the water was clean again. Any more often than that will SHOCK the fish and STRESS them out(which could kill them). Well it took at least 4-5 days to get the water clear. Now every week I draw out 20-25% of the water out and its crystal clear now. The fish are about 4yrs old now. There's even a "filter" that I replace periodically but still flush it out every week. I even add a water conditioner which reminds me of using Lubeguard.
 
I'm not sure I buy the goldfish analogy.

A goldfish is a living thing, with cells that can adapt to changes in their environment, but slowly. Changing their environment too rapidly doesn't allow the cells time to adapt. A transmission is a simple mechanical object that is either in spec or not. Whether you clean out any crud slowly or quickly, you're getting it to the same state and it will either be in spec and function normally or it will be out of spec and function poorly.

Paraphrasing Jim Allen from another post: "If fresh fluid kills a transmission, it's just finishing the job as the transmission was already a goner".
 
Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
A transmission is a simple mechanical object that is either in spec or not.


A simple mechanical object? Far from it. I'd say they are rather complex. Many hours and steps go into a complete rebuild. Not to mention many parts. If it were so simple I'd doubt it would cost $2700. Not like a pcv valve, t-stat etc...

Goldfish are complex also. It's not like you can build one from scratch. Just a simple analogy is all. Maybe, I should have used horses instead and cleaning out their stalls.
smile.gif


Edit: Actually, I was tryng to lighten the mood a little with the fish.
 
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Originally Posted By: satinsilver
since the atf is loaded with detergents.



Myth. Typical ATF has dispersants, but little or no detergents.
 
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