Tranny UOA

[AcuraSLX]

Vehicle Acura SLX 99 3.5L V6 with 4L30E Strasbourg GM Transmission.
History:
Bought truck with 4118 mi on ODO had tranny drained and flushed by Acura dealer at 30K.
Had tranny drained and flushed at 56K by local lube shop. it was refilled with M1 Synthetic ATF.
Had ATF tested by Herguth Labs/ sample taken by AAA Diagnostic under the oil scan program.
Oil Scan only gives limited results no TBN etc.
Truck had 73K+ miles on ODO.
Iron - 78 ppm
AL - 7 ppm
Chromium - Copper - **222 ppm
Lead - **41 ppm
Tin - **9 ppm
Nickel - Silver - Silicon - 9 ppm
Sodium - 11 ppm
Boron - 80 ppm
Zinc - 55 ppm
Phosphorous - 282 ppm
Calcium - 263 ppm
Magnesium - 2 ppm
Barium - 69 ppm
Moly - 1 ppm
Potassium -
Oxidation Abs/cm - **48
Water FTIR % Vol - Nitration Abs/cm - Anti-Wear Abs/cm -
note:
1)all double asterisk are abnormal range
2)Oxidation results are skewed by the synthetic makeup of the AFT
3)Cu, Pb, etc indicate bronze component wear.

4)The lab notes that there is little or no database for AFT UOAs in general or for 4l30E tranny.
5)My tranny specialist said that the wear was not unusual or significant. You cannot compare this with Engine UOAs.
Vehicle use included off roadingin UT, AZ, CA, and High speed runs through the desert in high temps. This was my first UOA.

 

[JohnBrowning]

FOr comparison I am posting on of my first posts a long time ago.
2001 Dodge Dakota Quad Cab
4.7V8 45RFE Trans
28,000 MIles on the Truck 18,000 on the ATF.
Transmission was not flushed just drained and refilled with Redline ATF.

Aluminum 20
Chromium 0
Iron 17
Copper 18
Lead 8
Tin 0
Moly 1
Nickel o
manganesse 2
silver 0
titanium 0
potassium 5
boron 48
silicon 44
sodium 22
calcium 1285
magnesium 3
phosphorus 429
zinc 361
barium 791

SUS@210 49.1
Flash Point 405

The high silicone was due to adding Mopar anti Foam wich is silcone based. I sent Redline an email asking if theirs already had the antifoam in it but they took to long getting back to me. So I added the old Mopar silicone anti foam to the fluid. I also sespect that when the body shop replaced the radiator and the trany cooler that they used ATF+3 instead of ATF+4 to top off the transmission. At 10,000 miles I changed the two filter's and drained out 7 quarts of trany fluid. I replaced the 7 quarts that i was able to drain out with redline C+ATF. Is it possable that the esters in the Redline are cleaning the case of the transmission like Auto-RX would and that is why the Aluminum is high? This is the first automatic UOA I have looked at. Where could the aluminum be comeing from. I know it can not be wear related or the iron,copper, lead and tin would be up! I wounder if it could be comeing from the new OEM oil cooler it is all aluminum? I am going to drain and refill and se what my next sample looks like!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ September 06, 2003, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JohnBrowning:

-snip
Aluminum 20
snip-
Is it possable that the esters in the Redline are cleaning the case of the transmission like Auto-RX would and that is why the Aluminum is high? ---

---

It may be high for this boards standards, but not mine. It is just reaching the abnormal level, and I would say still safe within severe levels to be concerned until 35-40.
Your SI was explained, and ALL the numbers to me looked FANTASTIC. you changed it at the correct time as far as the Aluminum.

 

[AcuraSLX]

Does anyone know if 4L30E normally has a high copper on analysis? The eleven quarts of M1 ATF flushed out did not appear burned. There were no visible copper or aluminum particles. There was a small amount of steel stuck on the magnetic plug.
Has anyone seen results like this before?
As you may have noticed, I'm new at this!

 

[unDummy]

How many quarts of ATF did the lube shop use?
Did you supply it?
Did you watch them install it?

What is the definition of their socalled drain/flush?

Get it flushed immediately. All it takes is one good trashing(speeding/towing/plowing/offroading....) to ruin a good transmission. I'm also assuming that either Acura or YOU installed a quality ATF cooler. If not, get one.

Call the dealer and ask the what a new transmission costs. Then, you'll see the importance of doing yearly flushes instead of using mileage.

 

[AcuraSLX]

Acura supplied the ATF for the first flush at 30K. It is possible that they used Honda ATF. They wouldn't carry more than one ATF in the Acura dealership.
I supplied the M1 ATF for the second flush at 56K.
I did not watch them put it in and I am skeptical.
However the ATF which was drained out was still red and not burned. The filter was relatively clean with no visible particles. There was a small amount of steel on the magnetic plug.
The oxidation and nitration numbers seem to reflect a high percentage of synthetic.
The draining technique was less than optimal at the 56K M1 ATF flush. I doubt that they flushed properly. The 73K RL flush was done with a T Tech machine. These are supposed to be the best. I checked the refill with RL and examined the eleven Qts of flushed fluid. 17K of use shouldn't stress the M1 ATF. I have an idiot light that checks tranny temp. Yes it works and no it never went on. I let the vehicle idle after a long pull to bring tranny temp down.
Yes it is indeed an expensive tranny.

 

[pinoy99]

FWIW, I have not seen or read many tranny trouble for Isuzu. I have pretty much had same service schedule as yours, 20k dealer change and subsequent changes every 30k or so are done via T-Tech by Jiffy Lube using their

oil which I believe is Valvoline.

 

[JohnBrowning]

NExt time try Redline synthetic and you need not flushit each time. Simply draining it changeing the filter and refilling will do nicely. This assumes that you stay ahead of oxidation. The only time you need to flush a trany is if you have let the fluid go too long.

I use M1 in my engine because it does a good job and the price is right. When it comes to transmissions and differetials I only use Redline! Their are alot of oils that will turn in good numbers in most engines but Redline is the absolute best in transmissions and diff's. Just my $.02

 

[AcuraSLX]

Thanks JB;
I refilled with Red Line D4 Synthetic ATF and gave it a fresh filter. Hope to have better results next time.
Pinoy:
The flushing machine used by the local lube shop has a capacity of 16 Qts. I couldn't get them to empty the standard ATF and then refill their machine with RL. I also couldn't afford to buy 16 Qts of RL and pay for the 16 Qts of cheap stuff.
A professional tranny shop did the work on my 4L30E T Tech flushed and pumped in the RL. The tranny shop was a little cheaper than the quickie lube!
It was Leale's Transmission in San Jose. They are family owned for over 40 years.

 

[Bror Jace]

Notice any shift-feel difference with the Red Line ATF?

I've liked all their products to date but I'm leary of spending all that money on ATF ... only to find that my tranny doesn't like their stuff for some minor, picky reason.

--- Bror Jace

 

[JohnBrowning]

The only difference I felt in shift feel was that it shifted as well cold(winter) as it did hot(summer). It never felt any different other then that.

I had my truck in about 6 times under warranty for recalls and TSB's. Every time they put my truck up on the lift they would coment" That is odd their is absolutely no fluid seeping from your rear trany seal." I guess it is normal for them to leak and the seal often has to be replaced more then once if you keep it longer 70,000 miles.

The above numbers included an acident were the cooler and radiator core were breached and pumping fluid on to the ground. I am pretty sure that the new aluminum cooler had to contribute to the aluminum some. I am also pretty sure that the body shop toped off the vechile with ATF+3 which is the wrong fluid for this vechile. I doubt that any other fluid would have survived these situations as well.

 

[AcuraSLX]

Shift feel is better. I live in mild climate. The 4L30E stays in a lower gear longer in the morning. It's computer is programmed to use different shift points when the tranny fluid temp is low. As the fluid temp rises to normal, the shift points retreat to normal. It also has the unique characteristic of loudly shifting into low at every stop. This particular version of 4L30E has two other programs available to the driver. One program shifts into third gear instead of first for slippery starts. The other is a increased performance set of shift points for towing or mountain driving. The same tranny with different size torque converters is used in the Cadillac Catera/Opel, early BMW Z3 as well as various Isuzu made trucks. In fact, it's the only thing that doesn't break on the Catera!

 

[JohnBrowning]

Wow, I am going to call you deep pockets from now on

I could never afford to buy 16 quarts all at once. I just drain and fill. 50% fluid exchange is plenty in most cases.

This is how I normaly service a new vechile. 10,000 I drop the pan if American made or pull the plug if import. I refill with synthetic fluid. I then wait till 30,000 miles and do a filter and fluid change. Buy the second change you have such a high concentration of synthetic in their that it is all synthetic for all practical purposes. Let not forgett that most fluids today are either synthetic or semi-synthetic in transmission. I also plan on makeing Auto-Rx a regular part of the maintence on automatics!!

P.S. Bror Jace Redline is not a Universal FLuid like Amsoil ATF!! They make a specific fluid for each application. I have never had anyone use their ATF and have problems ever! Even as picky as Dodge transmissions are!

[ September 11, 2003, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]