Trade in for a BMW or Mercedes?

[CBR.worm]

It is ironic that the new car is less reliable than the Jag. I don't know what year yours was, but we have had a couple newer Jags in my family that were very problematic from day one (both were supercharged and during the Ford years).

IMO, no new (or decent used) car should have multiple issues within the first year of ownership. That does not bode well for a long and trouble free life.

We also have a 500 Abarth in the family that gets the hooligan treatment every time it is driven. So far, so good. Only about 8k miles so far.

The majority of our family cars (excluding mine) are BMW's or Mercedes. They have all been fairly problem free except for an '08 335i which had the usual issues. My sister in law has a new A7 which has had multiple different issues in the few months since it was purchased - which is disappointing.

We now have a new 328 and a new 735 in the family, both of which I will be interested in seeing how they hold up long term. I am still leery of the little turbo motor, big car mindset.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I agree - base cars with little options and MT only.

So that leaves out MB, unless he goes for the SLK.




Had to remind mo of this sad situation, didnt you?

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: Finz
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Historically, european cars are poor on reliability. You may be trading one problem car for another problem car.


You can not generalise.

Fiats are largely considered to be one of the less robust makes in the UK

Though the older ML has a rather iffy reputation for build and reliability.

As that is a European make but made in US is that considered a European vehicle or American car?




I just find it fascinating that ever 3rd Audi, Merc or VW that I see driving is missing tail light, head light or some other light

When it comes to electronics, I don't think any mfg can hold a candle to the Japanese or Korean cars


I suggest that says a little more about the owners of these other cars.

Unless Japanese vehicles are fitted with specials bulbs in the US.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Japanese cars have plenty of soul.

Also, the Koreans have a Soul.

And a Seoul!

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: ram_man
if your car is truly that bad cant you utilize lemon laws? I wouldn't buy a bmw or a Mercedes if I wanted low maintenance and trouble free.


x2. Luxury cars are not cheap to purchase and certainly not low maintenance. They just aren't built that way. I wouldn't call them unreliable, they just require more maintenance than other vehicles due to their complexity.

 

[sparky123]

The one thing that really turns me off of BMW's (besides the price) is that even the least expense models all have run flat tires. I bet that runs quite a bit for replacement tires. If I was you, I'd give a serious look @ the VW GTI. Deals can had on remaining MK6's. I really enjoy the quality, comfort and driving experience of my 12' Golf. Base 2dr. model/6-sp Auto. Feels more sporty than the 4 dr. Mid's 18k new. The Mazda 6 looks really nice as well. Sorry to hear of your 500 troubles. The local dealer has TONS on the lot.

 

[79sunrunner]

Originally Posted By: CBR.worm
It is ironic that the new car is less reliable than the Jag. I don't know what year yours was, but we have had a couple newer Jags in my family that were very problematic from day one (both were supercharged and during the Ford years).

IMO, no new (or decent used) car should have multiple issues within the first year of ownership. That does not bode well for a long and trouble free life.

We also have a 500 Abarth in the family that gets the hooligan treatment every time it is driven. So far, so good. Only about 8k miles so far.

The majority of our family cars (excluding mine) are BMW's or Mercedes. They have all been fairly problem free except for an '08 335i which had the usual issues. My sister in law has a new A7 which has had multiple different issues in the few months since it was purchased - which is disappointing.

We now have a new 328 and a new 735 in the family, both of which I will be interested in seeing how they hold up long term. I am still leery of the little turbo motor, big car mindset.


I had a 1998 Jag XJ8. It was showing its wear, but it made it to each service without problems. If I noticed a leaking gasket, or failing bearing, I'd order one while inspect the he car at each oil change, and then repair it ASAP. It always showed signs of something about to go out before it left me stranded, sure it needed many things, but it didn't leave me stranded. It cost me about $1000 a year in maintenance to run it leaving fuel cost out, but I was so detailed with it, I replaced the turn signal stalks if the "feel" of it was going away. The electrics were sensitive, and threw codes here and there, but I always had spare sensors in the garage, also replaced the timing chains, and was about to beef up the transmission before I traded it in. It was one of my most favorite cars, but that Italian charm got to me, and the warrantee.

I will defiantly get another one as a weekend car, maybe an Early 70s XJ6. Or my most favorite car of all time, the E-Type.

 

[silverrat]

I would pay $1000 maintenance a year to drive a jaguar.

How about looking for a used 1M coupe?

 

[hattaresguy]

Well I have owned and my family and friends have owned quite a number of European cars of all vintages and makes and I can honestly say not one of them would I consider "cheap" to own. Unless its old and your just running it into the ground. Having said that for what they are they can be very economical to own if you do it right...

My Chevy WT is cheap to own, an oil change is $16, a radiator is $80, when the CE comes on its a $20 part. The most expensive thing that can break on that truck is the transmission which is $1,200.

The last radiator I bought for a Mercedes was $400, XJ was the same. When the CE light comes on on my friends G wagon its like $2k...Older big Lexus are just as bad, only the Camry based ones are cheap to own. My buddy was just sealing the sunroof on his dads better 10 year old GX suv shut because the dealer wants $4,500 to fix it...after he just paid $500 for a new Xenon.

You do have to pay to play, but having said that you can hedge your bet a bit. You don't want to get sucked into for example say a 10 year old Audi A8 or 7 series with lots of miles and a few owners....that would be an expensive experience...A 10 year old E class would be a much better bet.

For starters if you are not mechanically inclined and have to pay someone to fix everything than your going to want to buy something that is under warranty. I'd recommend a lightly used (CPO) base 3 series or C class, they age well and you can't go wrong. I would avoid AWD and lots of options, as well as boosted engines. Keep it until the warranty expires than trade it in. Or you can lease one of the two pretty cheap.

If you are mechanically inclined and can spend a bit of time online to figure out and fix problems yourself than you can look at older vehicles. Again you want base models, the E class is a safe bet, as is the W220 if you buy something after 04 and base, S350 rwd with service records. BMW's can be good but they have some pretty big problems as they age and tend to be driven harder. 7 series are a nightmare unless you go very old. Audi's are just ugh, like big complicated VW's with lots of bad designs under the hood for the poor guy 10 years down the road. Big RWD Lexus like the GS and LS if bought in good shape can also be good bets.

Just keep money in reserve so a $3k repair won't kill you, every vehicle mentioned above is capable of generating such a repair if a major system fails.

The trick which is harder than it sounds is buying a well maintained example with service records. Most people don't take care of their cars and complicated European ones are not tolerant of this.

 

[nleksan]

As you can see, I am a big fan of BMW. I have enjoyed my share of Porsche's as well, but I can't afford the GT3 RS so I am sticking with the Bimmers for now

I have spent a lot, and I mean a lot, of time with all the German marques, and I found Audi to be essentially overpriced VW's, and Mercedes to be boring (AMG cars even, with some exceptions). The only consistently fun, reliablebrand hhas been BMW.


That said, the abs olute most important thing there is with these cars is preventative maintenence combined with having a rock solid indy mechanic you trust implicitly. The willingness to buy parts yourself (and even DIY some things) will save you thousands upon thousands, as will avoiding dealer repairs at all costs! Also, there is almost always an aftermarket part (or more than one) that is both cheaper and vastly superior to the OEM one being replaced. An example: the rear trailing arm bushings. Dealership wants $1500 to replace w new OEM bushings for E46 M3. I paid $60 for the Rogue Engineering ones which are significantly stronger than stock, another $75 for the Turner Motor sports RTAB limiters, and the installation cost was $90 (done with a number of other things) by my indy. Doing just the bushings would be $150.

The reliability concerns are not with the engines, which are some of the most over engineered motors period, but with ancillary things like electrical stuff. BMW is one of the few manufacturers who uses forged pistons/rods/cranks, and you can easily get 300K out of a motor without opening it up.
Just watch the cooling system, replace w better components @ 60k miles, don't go more than 7k OCI, change coolant every 2yrs, transmission and diff fluids every 30k to be safe, and brake fluid every year (two max).

Don't cheap out on gasoline either. I use Shell and nothing else, as it's only 2.3 percent EtOH for 93oct here vs 8-11pct elsewhere. It has kept my fuel system running without a single issue. Change fuel filter every 15-25k depending on driving conditions.


Oh, and I speak from a lot of personal experience when I say that Redline, and other Group 5, as well as RP (only G4 I use) are the best way to show your BMW that you care. This comes from having done many full teardowns of many different engines, and the ones that have only seen RL and RP have all been literally spotless and show zero visible wear, whereas those running literally anything else (any other oil yyou can get off the shelf) have been anything from decent to sludged over, the OCI mileage being the variable.

With the N54/N55 turbos, 5k max OCI w RL 0W40 has been the best, without question, for both motor and for turbo health.
If you're looking at a turbo motor, and you want to keep the car for a very long time, the absolute best thing to do is get an auxiliary oil cooler from a reputable BMW tuner alongwwith a new, upgraded intercooler (Active Autowerke is decent). Running a 30/70 coolant to water ratio, with a bottle of water Wetter, helps a lot too.

 

[01rangerxl]

How important is reliability to you really? Modern MB and BMW cars are not what they used to be. Not that they aren't good cars, but working on a new MB is not like working on a W126, nor do they have that kind of reliability anymore. I think you would be just as likely to encounter the problems you described except for maybe body panels falling off.

With a 2 year old CPO car with a warranty, you may be fine, but I would be prepared to deal with problems when you buy a car like this.

3+ years gets to be a danger zone with these cars. Unless enthusiast owned, maintenance tends to drop like a rock. A lot of second, third, fourth... owners get mad enough when they find out an oil change at a shop or dealer is $80+, and when the car starts having problems, they just let things go as long as it keeps driving. We have no state inspections here, so I see multi-owner Euro cars with lit up gauge clusters all the time. They can go to [censored] quick when in the hands of someone who doesn't want to keep up with the maintenance and repairs. Either buy new, nearly new, or really old unless you are prepared for a potential project.

 

[hattaresguy]

Sigh that really is the problem. People who really can't afford them or just don't care buy them, and expect Honda like reliability. So when the first $2k light comes on, it stays on.

Just because you can buy a Mercedes for $25k does not mean its going to cost what a $25k Honda will to keep on the road. Its still a $60k+ complicated vehicle.

You can drive a reasonable used Mercedes for hundreds of thousands of miles if your willing to put the money into it $2k-$3k a year is the number. Less if you DIY.

 

[Norm Olt]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Japanese cars have plenty of soul.

Also, the Koreans have a Soul.

ZING!

On that note, the redesigned Soul actually does look like an attractive little car to me.



Do you guys not really mean..

PLENTY OF SEOUL?

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

The trick which is harder than it sounds is buying a well maintained example with service records. Most people don't take care of their cars and complicated European ones are not tolerant of this.


Exactly; a lot of folks think my experience with running BMWs past 100K has been an outlier because I rarely have expensive maintenance/repair issues issues. The key is maintaining the car by the book(with the exception of "lifetime" fluids and lubricants- but that's another story).

Back in the early '90s I was looking at a 1988 M3. The boneheaded owner kept telling me how he changed the oil every 3,000 miles- but that's the only maintenance he had performed- no brake fluid or coolant changes- or proof of any other scheduled maintenance.
Idiot.

 

[hattaresguy]

Yep, with German cars they expect you to change the brake fluid every year, and to do other services. They also expect you to use the proper fluid, their engineers are quite good and very specific if you follow the FSM. The FSM is the bible follow it, if they say a fluid must meet XYZ spec it has to meet it, period.

You also have to keep on top of the little problems before they grow, much like on a boat or airplane. Preventative maintenance is very important. I have driven and owned plenty of Mercedes which at 300k felt and drove as tight and nicely as when they had 50k on them because of this. Keep replacing parts and they will go forever, I have seen cars with 600k+ on them that just keep going.

Most Americans think its like an old Buick or Toyota where you turn the key for 100k and put whatever you "feel" is right in it.

The results from such an approach will not be satisfactory.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Well I have owned and my family and friends have owned quite a number of European cars of all vintages and makes and I can honestly say not one of them would I consider "cheap" to own. Unless its old and your just running it into the ground. Having said that for what they are they can be very economical to own if you do it right...

My Chevy WT is cheap to own, an oil change is $16, a radiator is $80, when the CE comes on its a $20 part. The most expensive thing that can break on that truck is the transmission which is $1,200.

The last radiator I bought for a Mercedes was $400, XJ was the same. When the CE light comes on on my friends G wagon its like $2k...Older big Lexus are just as bad, only the Camry based ones are cheap to own. My buddy was just sealing the sunroof on his dads better 10 year old GX suv shut because the dealer wants $4,500 to fix it...after he just paid $500 for a new Xenon.

You do have to pay to play, but having said that you can hedge your bet a bit. You don't want to get sucked into for example say a 10 year old Audi A8 or 7 series with lots of miles and a few owners....that would be an expensive experience...A 10 year old E class would be a much better bet.

For starters if you are not mechanically inclined and have to pay someone to fix everything than your going to want to buy something that is under warranty. I'd recommend a lightly used (CPO) base 3 series or C class, they age well and you can't go wrong. I would avoid AWD and lots of options, as well as boosted engines. Keep it until the warranty expires than trade it in. Or you can lease one of the two pretty cheap.

If you are mechanically inclined and can spend a bit of time online to figure out and fix problems yourself than you can look at older vehicles. Again you want base models, the E class is a safe bet, as is the W220 if you buy something after 04 and base, S350 rwd with service records. BMW's can be good but they have some pretty big problems as they age and tend to be driven harder. 7 series are a nightmare unless you go very old. Audi's are just ugh, like big complicated VW's with lots of bad designs under the hood for the poor guy 10 years down the road. Big RWD Lexus like the GS and LS if bought in good shape can also be good bets.

Just keep money in reserve so a $3k repair won't kill you, every vehicle mentioned above is capable of generating such a repair if a major system fails.

The trick which is harder than it sounds is buying a well maintained example with service records. Most people don't take care of their cars and complicated European ones are not tolerant of this.

+1 best post in a long time.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Yep, with German cars they expect you to change the brake fluid every year, and to do other services. They also expect you to use the proper fluid, their engineers are quite good and very specific if you follow the FSM. The FSM is the bible follow it, if they say a fluid must meet XYZ spec it has to meet it, period.

You also have to keep on top of the little problems before they grow, much like on a boat or airplane. Preventative maintenance is very important. I have driven and owned plenty of Mercedes which at 300k felt and drove as tight and nicely as when they had 50k on them because of this. Keep replacing parts and they will go forever, I have seen cars with 600k+ on them that just keep going.

Most Americans think its like an old Buick or Toyota where you turn the key for 100k and put whatever you "feel" is right in it.

The results from such an approach will not be satisfactory.


Non-car people think that my son's 159k mile 2004 X3 is only 3-4 years old. It is quiet and tight with only a couple of spots in the interior with noticeable wear.
But then, I don't maintain it like it was a mass-market appliance...

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
How important is reliability to you really? Modern MB and BMW cars are not what they used to be.



Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with this.

20 years ago they were horribly unreliable. Now, you've got companies like Audi in the top 5.

 

[01rangerxl]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
How important is reliability to you really? Modern MB and BMW cars are not what they used to be.



Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with this.

20 years ago they were horribly unreliable. Now, you've got companies like Audi in the top 5.


I'm not talking 1990s, I mean mid 1980s and older. A W126 was a complex car for the time, but also very service/repair friendly.

Probably the last German car that was pretty easy to work on and reasonably reliable IMO was the E46. Those had problems too with the transmissions, cooling systems, and electronic features, but they were still meant to be worked on. In comparison a C230 from the same era is a pain in the [censored] to do simple things on, like changing the alternator, and will probably be an oil burning POS by this point unless enthusiast owned.

I think the current models have way too much new tech to be called reliable (for the average owner) yet. I see a lot of German cars less than 10 years old with blue clouds coming out of the exhaust. Run them through auctions a couple times and see how fast the dash lights up. A regular customer of mine likes to bring me these treasures every couple of days fresh from the auction...heavily Armoralled and dashboard ablaze with lights. I don't even bother pulling out the code reader anymore, it's Alabama and nobody cares as long as the thing moves under its own power.

I did an oil change on a W126 hooptie last week that was running better and had fewer mechanical problems than most of the German cars I see that are 10-20 years younger.

 

[donnyj08]

how about a Corvette? Great Gas mileage and LSX reliability.