Toyota switching gears?

[JeffKeryk]

According to Reuters, Toyota new CEO Koji Sato appears to be dropping ex-CEO Toyoda's EV plan.
Toyota is looking at a factory floor overhaul as it maps out a move to a new, dedicated platform for battery electric vehicles.
A new EV platform, if implemented, would be the result of a far-reaching review of Toyota's electric-car strategy undertaken last year.

Toyota's was planning to use the TNGA multi purpose design which allows production of electric vehicles on the same assembly line as gasoline cars and hybrids.
E-TNGA can't, however, provide the cost savings Tesla has managed with its massive Giga Press casting machines and other manufacturing innovations.

"The world's biggest automaker increasingly recognises it needs to match Tesla Inc's (TSLA.O) design and manufacturing innovations if it is to drive down production costs and turn its all-electric business into a higher margin one as its Silicon Valley rival has done, another person said."

Those of us who have worked at manufacturing companies of complex products understand the benefits of a pure play design. While part reuse is an important design characteristic, a part that tries to do too much is a compromise. The final product suffers.

Interesting times ahead. I am not sure everyone understood why ex-CEO Akio Toyoda "stepped down". There is a reason Sato is now CEO.
I wish CEO Koji Sata well. Toyoda hand picked him; I have to believe he is the right leader for Toyota today and going forward.

 

[mcdonnell]

He is a believer in fuel cell Hydrogen. He knows just like any other person with a pigeon brain. We have no coal fire plants being added no nuclear plants being added no drilling. We have no grid for electric cars. Toyota is also in partnership to build the infrastructure. The whale killing and bird killing windmills do nothing.

 

[Pelican]

According to Reuters, Toyota new CEO Koji Sato appears to be dropping ex-CEO Toyoda's EV plan.
Toyota is looking at a factory floor overhaul as it maps out a move to a new, dedicated platform for battery electric vehicles.
A new EV platform, if implemented, would be the result of a far-reaching review of Toyota's electric-car strategy undertaken last year.

Toyota's was planning to use the TNGA multi purpose design which allows production of electric vehicles on the same assembly line as gasoline cars and hybrids.
E-TNGA can't, however, provide the cost savings Tesla has managed with its massive Giga Press casting machines and other manufacturing innovations.

"The world's biggest automaker increasingly recognises it needs to match Tesla Inc's (TSLA.O) design and manufacturing innovations if it is to drive down production costs and turn its all-electric business into a higher margin one as its Silicon Valley rival has done, another person said."

Those of us who have worked at manufacturing companies of complex products understand the benefits of a pure play design. While part reuse is an important design characteristic, a part that tries to do too much is a compromise. The final product suffers.

Interesting times ahead. I am not sure everyone understood why ex-CEO Akio Toyoda "stepped down". There is a reason Sato is now CEO.
I wish CEO Koji Sata well. Toyoda hand picked him; I have to believe he is the right leader for Toyota today and going forward.

That's exactly the OPPOSITE of what I've read. Toyoda was asked to resign because he said that EV was a non starter and some people thought that politically that was a "Subsidy Killer" Sato ws put in charge to develop an EV prgram and now even HE says what Toyoda said! They both believe that fuel cell is THE answer.

 

[Torrid]

He is a believer in fuel cell Hydrogen. He knows just like any other person with a pigeon brain. We have no coal fire plants being added no nuclear plants being added no drilling. We have no grid for electric cars. Toyota is also in partnership to build the infrastructure. The whale killing and bird killing windmills do nothing.

English? You know how much electricity it takes to make Hydrogen? Might want to look into that. Between transportation of hydrogen, storing, and manufacturer it uses more energy than just plugging in an EV.

Hydrogen is cool stuff, but it's going to need a lot of development. Probably would be better to make a few more electric cars than just that BZ4X or whatever it's called while they work on it.

 

[JeffKeryk]

That's exactly the OPPOSITE of what I've read. Toyoda was asked to resign because he said that EV was a non starter and some people thought that politically that was a "Subsidy Killer" Sato ws put in charge to develop an EV prgram and now even HE says what Toyoda said! They both believe that fuel cell is THE answer.

Perhaps read the article. Toyota is reviewing their strategy. What comes of this remains to be seen.
That's why I wrote the title and blurb like I did.

"Koji Sato may confirm that new EV architecture is in the works at his first briefing as CEO on Friday, one of the people has said."
Again, interesting times ahead.

 

[MalibuRam65]

GM will follow oh yes Mary Barrea will change course

 

[ragtoplvr]

Mary Barrea has almost killed GM. if she stays much longer she will succede.

 

[missingcurlybracket]

I read somewhere about hydrogen being more viable in Japan and explaining some of Toyota’s and Honda’s choices, did I hallucinate that?

On another note, adding electricity capacity is still going to be a whole lot easier than building out hydrogen production and fueling stations.

Got to drive a Nexo though last year, it was pretty cool albeit felt just like an electric car, which figures.

 

[JavierH19]

Hydrogen would be more viable if the cost per mile of driving a H vehicle would go down. Hydrogen is pretty expensive.

 

[chris719]

Hydrogen only makes sense to those who choose to ignore physics.

 

[leadcounsel]

Toyota has 5 of the top 12 selling vehicles in 2022. And basically leads or generally ties with the top vehicles sales annually. It has more vehicles in the top 20 than any other auto maker I believe.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g39628015/best-selling-cars-2022/
#4. Rav4
#5. Camry
#8 Tacoma
#11. Highlander
#12. Corolla

I don't think Toyota is worried. Toyota has 2 sedans ahead of the Y and 3. Considering Ford just lost $3 Billion on EVs, why would anyone bother at this point? Toyota needs to focus on and know its market, which is not latte drinking millionaires in San Diego. Let Tesla have its small market share. It's not competing with Toyota in any real terms at this point. Sure, do some R&D for the future, but why try to compete with elites in CA who want EVs?

Meanwhile, as basically the only serious EV maker, Tesla scored 2 very unique entries in the top 20.
#9. Tesla Y. A very unique luxury vehicle, the only luxury toy in the top 20. All other 18 ICE vehicles are pragmatic trucks, SUVs, and cars in the top 20, other than the Tesla 3 in at #15. More about fashion than anything IMO, subsidized toys for the rich.
#15. Tesla 3

Why would Toyota care to invest in a marginal market share?

ETA: And to hammer the point, Ford just posted a $3,000,000,000 loss on EVs this year. To put Ford's loss in perspective, that's almost as much as Telsa made on EVs in 2022. Tesla reported a $3,700,000,000 EV profit for 2022. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-reports-record-revenue-for-2022-with-1-31-million-evs-sold/

So, why would any company gamble this amount to try to capture a relatively small market share, where they have distinct dis-advantages? Makes no sense right now. Tesla has 1 vehicle in the top 10 (a luxury car, which is not the market of Ford, Toyota, GM or Chryser), and 1 pedestrian car in the top 20 which is not much of a sales threat to the major ICE auto makers at this point.

I just think the majors need to focus on ICE, where they have the strength.

 

[LenZee]

He is a believer in fuel cell Hydrogen. He knows just like any other person with a pigeon brain. We have no coal fire plants being added no nuclear plants being added no drilling. We have no grid for electric cars. Toyota is also in partnership to build the infrastructure. The whale killing and bird killing windmills do nothing.

https://www.factcheck.org/2023/03/no-evidence-offshore-wind-development-killing-whales/
Ship strikes and fishing nets kill by far kill majority of whales,
https://www.eesi.org/articles/view/how-harmful-is-renewable-energy-to-birds
"According to the data, while solar is estimated to cause 1,000 to 28,000 bird deaths annually, and wind 140,000 to 328,000, coal kills far more – about 7.9 million birds a year!"

Makes you wonder where you got your info?

 

[CharBaby]

If (IF) we could put the Chevy Silverado & the GMC Sierra sales figures together, they'd outsell the Ford F Series by > 100K units.
Thus, making GM the largest selling pickup truck mfg.

 

[artbuc]

https://www.factcheck.org/2023/03/no-evidence-offshore-wind-development-killing-whales/
Ship strikes and fishing nets kill by far kill majority of whales,
https://www.eesi.org/articles/view/how-harmful-is-renewable-energy-to-birds
"According to the data, while solar is estimated to cause 1,000 to 28,000 bird deaths annually, and wind 140,000 to 328,000, coal kills far more – about 7.9 million birds a year!"

Makes you wonder where you got your info?

And you believe anything coming out of our government bureaucrcies?

 

[wag123]

That's exactly the OPPOSITE of what I've read. Toyoda was asked to resign because he said that EV was a non starter and some people thought that politically that was a "Subsidy Killer" Sato ws put in charge to develop an EV prgram and now even HE says what Toyoda said! They both believe that fuel cell is THE answer.

Toyoda was not asked to resign, he stepped down as CEO to assume the chairman of the board position that was open after his father passed away February 14th, plus, he is getting up-there in age and wanted to retire. He is still running the entire show, just not the day-to-day operations. Sato just reaffirmed Toyota's long-term corporate policy.
Having said that, I'm not convinced that hydrogen is practical for consumer passenger vehicle use. IMO the future of hydrogen is with long haul trucks, busses, construction equipment, ships, and locomotives (battery power will never be practical for these applications). Even then, this will be way off in the future, a long time after I am gone.

 

[Torrid]

Toyoda was not asked to resign, he stepped down as CEO to assume the chairman of the board position that was open after his father passed away February 14th, plus, he is getting up-there in age and wanted to retire. He is still running the entire show, just not the day-to-day operations. Sato just reaffirmed Toyota's long-term corporate policy.
Having said that, I'm not convinced that hydrogen is practical for consumer passenger vehicle use. IMO the future of hydrogen is with long haul trucks, busses, construction equipment, ships, and locomotives (battery power will never be practical for these applications). Even then, this will be way off in the future, a long time after I am gone.

This 100%. Batteries are a horrible choice for pulling lots of tonnage. There's just not enough reserve without adding even more weight in batteries which ups the charge time. Hydrogen would allow long haul trucks to go electric. As of now though hydrogen is still more expensive than diesel, so some things would need to happen to get there.

 

[hemioiler]

If (IF) we could put the Chevy Silverado & the GMC Sierra sales figures together, they'd outsell the Ford F Series by > 100K units.
Thus, making GM the largest selling pickup truck mfg.

Ask a GM shareholder vs a Ford shareholder what matters more to them; that GM makes more money selling more trucks, or that Ford can claim "best selling truck"?

Sierra and Silverado are just different trims for the same truck. Different grill/headlights and some minor feature differences. It's literally the same truck.

 

[Torrid]

Ask a GM shareholder vs a Ford shareholder what matters more to them; that GM makes more money selling more trucks, or that Ford can claim "best selling truck"?

Sierra and Silverado are just different trims for the same truck. Different grill/headlights and some minor feature differences. It's literally the same truck.

I think too that GM wouldn't be quick to tell those that don't know they're the same truck "Hey, look at this rehashed thing with another badge on it. Our giant conglomeration actually sells more trucks!" It doesn't sound like a good look the way I'm picturing it.

 

[DwightFrye]

I don't think Toyota is worried. Toyota has 2 sedans ahead of the Y and 3. Considering Ford just lost $3 Billion on EVs, why would anyone bother at this point? Toyota needs to focus on and know its market, which is not latte drinking millionaires in San Diego. Let Tesla have its small market share. It's not competing with Toyota in any real terms at this point. Sure, do some R&D for the future, but why try to compete with elites in CA who want EVs?

Why would Toyota care to invest in a marginal market share?

So, why would any company gamble this amount to try to capture a relatively small market share, where they have distinct dis-advantages? Makes no sense right now. .

I just think the majors need to focus on ICE, where they have the strength.

It's unfair to categorize EV buyers as "Elites in California".That stereotype has been obsolete for several years now.
Why would Toyota care to invest in a marginal market share ? Because it takes a lot of time and money to develop a new vehicle, especially an EV. And while Toyota is twiddling their thumbs other makers are moving forward and the market share is growing.And the costs, considering inflation, are growing every day.

So it may not make any sense right now to you, Toyota's stockholders are going to be crying like little girls in a few years if the once largest maker of automobiles is seen as an also-ran in the EV category.

The major makers may have strength in the ICE category and so far their EV's have been mediocre at best. And will likely remain so, They are too hampered by having to pay for unfunded pension liabilities, having to pay millions every year for recalls of their crummy ICE cars, and not making enough profits to divert enough of that money into R&D, factory modernization and other things necessary to build truly competitive EV's.

And all the while, Tesla is still 4-5 years ahead.

 

[missingcurlybracket]

And you believe anything coming out of our government bureaucrcies?

Not everything is some grand conspiracy as cool as that would be.

I’m tired of drive-by “oh the birds and marine life!” by people who don’t care about those things anyway and think it’s some big proof of “oh renewables stupid!” like existing power generation methods are so clean and healthy for everyone and everything. Like it or not, it’s smart to diversify, test, not rely on burning different things.