Toyota Prius

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Gas mileage doesn't mean so much to me that I'd drive something like a Prius. Actually, I am in the minority here that I do not make any purchases based in MPG. I'm a power loving guy who wants luxury, safety and comfort over a few MPG's.

However, I commend Toyota for the job they did with the car. Sure, it doesn't have an engine with any power and the electric range is limited, but as a package it does what it was intended to do.

The only other Hybrid that does the job as well (and aruguably better!) is the GM 2 mode system on full size SUVs/trucks. Many of you here know that I was a part of this implementation at GM and I'm very pround of it. Who would of thought a fullsize SUV could return better city milage than a 4cyl Camry? Now I'm waiting for the Volt....and praying that the price is lowered enough so avg people can and will buy it!


What is this a GM commercial? The switchable valvetrain is a nice improvement in MPG for a big SUV but that Camry 4cyl will go 300k without a hiccup. There is no real field experience with the longevity of the GM valvetrain yet. But I doubt it will be a high miler for sure and cost for replacement will be another boon to the GM piston slappers crowd.

 

[PF52]

Originally Posted By: PT1

What is this a GM commercial?


LOL Usually its the other way around. Someone mentions, say, GM's intake-manifold gasket issues in a thread about, oh, say, Hondas. It happens so often its kind of like a BITOG hallmark. Although you managed to come close with the piston-slap mention.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Gas mileage doesn't mean so much to me that I'd drive something like a Prius. Actually, I am in the minority here that I do not make any purchases based in MPG. I'm a power loving guy who wants luxury, safety and comfort over a few MPG's.

However, I commend Toyota for the job they did with the car. Sure, it doesn't have an engine with any power and the electric range is limited, but as a package it does what it was intended to do.

The only other Hybrid that does the job as well (and aruguably better!) is the GM 2 mode system on full size SUVs/trucks. Many of you here know that I was a part of this implementation at GM and I'm very pround of it. Who would of thought a fullsize SUV could return better city milage than a 4cyl Camry? Now I'm waiting for the Volt....and praying that the price is lowered enough so avg people can and will buy it!


What is this a GM commercial? The switchable valvetrain is a nice improvement in MPG for a big SUV but that Camry 4cyl will go 300k without a hiccup. There is no real field experience with the longevity of the GM valvetrain yet. But I doubt it will be a high miler for sure and cost for replacement will be another boon to the GM piston slappers crowd.



Far from a commericial. What's worse, me stating a known fact or you just ranting on with [censored] about your precieved quality of a Camry?? Amazing...

 

[BearZDefect]

Before anybody complains about commercials, anyone remember JB's posts?

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: PT1

What is this a GM commercial?


LOL Usually its the other way around. Someone mentions, say, GM's intake-manifold gasket issues in a thread about, oh, say, Hondas. It happens so often its kind of like a BITOG hallmark. Although you managed to come close with the piston-slap mention.





If I hadn't mentioned Toyota in the post, nothing would have been said by him, I'm sure.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
a Coworker just test drove the prius but bought a RAV4 instead. She said she didn't like it that it was small, felt like a golf cart on the road, and was slow. Her words, not mine.


Well, let's look at objective reality, versus subjective hearsay. First off, interior volume: the current Prius has over 96 cubic feet of passenger volume. The Corolla and Civic each have 88-90 cubic feet, depending upon particular model. The Camry has 101 cubic feet. In short, the Prius is closer to a Camry in size than it is to the substantially smaller Corolla and Civic. The Prius also has almost 15 cubic feet of cargo volume, which is essentially identical to the space offered in a Camry or an Accord, and much more than the 10-12 cubic feet you see in Civics or Corollas.

OK, let's talk acceleration. The hybrids do suffer from the phenomenon I call "variable performance". If you catch one with a low battery charge, it will run slower than the same vehicle with a fully charged battery. I hope your friend got herself a V-6 RAV (itself a somewhat absurd concept...), because if she got the I-4, she got herself a vehicle that's pretty much just as "slow" as a Prius. And let's not forget that today's "lowly" Prius had essentially the same hp, and far more torque, than the V-6 mid-sized sedans of 15-20 years ago. Back then, everyone seemed to think that the "blazing" go of a 125 hp V-6 car was something special. Now, when you get the same from a Prius, it suxx??? C'mon.

I suspect that your friend just really wanted a RAV-4, not a Prius, in the first place, and she was going to do and say whatever she had to in order to justify her choice. . . (especially for herself...)

 

[Dave Hess]

I thought a Prius had lots of low end torque (good acceleration) due to the battery , no need to really rev the engine to a higher RPM ?

 

[ClarkB]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
So today, I rented a 2008 Toyota Prius...There's enough power for passing, but despite the torquey electric motor, it isn't much better than your typical 4-cyl family sedan.


Nice review, but comments like that quoted above tend to take the objectivity out of an otherwise good review. Surely you weren't expecting it to push you back into your seat like a ZR1?

Clark

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
First off, interior volume: the current Prius has over 96 cubic feet of passenger volume. The Corolla and Civic each have 88-90 cubic feet, depending upon particular model. The Camry has 101 cubic feet. In short, the Prius is closer to a Camry in size than it is to the substantially smaller Corolla and Civic. The Prius also has almost 15 cubic feet of cargo volume, which is essentially identical to the space offered in a Camry or an Accord, and much more than the 10-12 cubic feet you see in Civics or Corollas.


As much as I like Prius myself I do not agree with it being a mid size or its trunk is anywhere close to Camry in size. I was carrying luggage with 2 other people on a business trip and the size of the trunk of Prius is no where close to a Camry. It would be lucky if you consider its size the same as a Corolla. The reason is the sliding shade at the back makes the useful "trunk" area of the back much smaller. Most people don't like to show what they have in the trunk, so the volume to be consider should be the area below the shade.

It is fairly comfortable seating 4 especially the head room, but the interior width isn't as good as anything in the mid-size.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: ClarkB
Originally Posted By: The Critic
So today, I rented a 2008 Toyota Prius...There's enough power for passing, but despite the torquey electric motor, it isn't much better than your typical 4-cyl family sedan.


Nice review, but comments like that quoted above tend to take the objectivity out of an otherwise good review. Surely you weren't expecting it to push you back into your seat like a ZR1?

Clark


I would expect the ZR1 to do a LOT more than push one back in the seat

 

[firemachine69]

Like make one leave doodoo marks in the seat.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: firemachine69
Like make one leave doodoo marks in the seat.

Exactly

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
First off, interior volume: the current Prius has over 96 cubic feet of passenger volume. The Corolla and Civic each have 88-90 cubic feet, depending upon particular model. The Camry has 101 cubic feet. In short, the Prius is closer to a Camry in size than it is to the substantially smaller Corolla and Civic. The Prius also has almost 15 cubic feet of cargo volume, which is essentially identical to the space offered in a Camry or an Accord, and much more than the 10-12 cubic feet you see in Civics or Corollas.


As much as I like Prius myself I do not agree with it being a mid size or its trunk is anywhere close to Camry in size. I was carrying luggage with 2 other people on a business trip and the size of the trunk of Prius is no where close to a Camry. It would be lucky if you consider its size the same as a Corolla. The reason is the sliding shade at the back makes the useful "trunk" area of the back much smaller. Most people don't like to show what they have in the trunk, so the volume to be consider should be the area below the shade.

It is fairly comfortable seating 4 especially the head room, but the interior width isn't as good as anything in the mid-size.


1) Just check out the numbers. They are what they are. Again, Corolla at about 90 cu-ft, Prius at 96, Camry at 101.

2) The shade is easily removable, as is the bottom deck, which reveals enough added room for a brief case or laptop bag. Sure the shade is nice, but if you need the room... Add to that the flexibility of the huge hatch and the folding rear seats, and you get a space that's much more versatile than a typical sedan's.

3) Remember, the car is not proportioned typically. It's relatively long and narrow. This shifts the advantage to the four outboard seating positions, and quite candidly, means that the center rear sux if you're an adult (but is nevertheless usable except for the biggest blobs).

 

[Samilcar]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Now I'm waiting for the Volt....and praying that the price is lowered enough so avg people can and will buy it!


Ditto. I've already decided that my next vehicle purchase will be a plug-in hybrid, and everything I've read about the Volt makes me want one. I'm just waiting on what the purchase price will be...

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Now I'm waiting for the Volt....and praying that the price is lowered enough so avg people can and will buy it!


Ditto. I've already decided that my next vehicle purchase will be a plug-in hybrid, and everything I've read about the Volt makes me want one. I'm just waiting on what the purchase price will be...


I just don't really get why "plug-in hybrids" are seen by so many as the "holy grail" hybrid. I strongly prefer the regenerative design, as Toyota is currently selling. Now, if a plug-in also has regenerative capability, that's great. Remember that there's no engergy "free lunch."

You have to pay to "fill" a plug-in's "electrical tank" just as you have to pay to fill a gasoline tank. With a regenerative hybrid, you "fill" the battery with "re-used" energy that you've already paid for, and on the second "go 'round" you get to use it for "free" (ignoring, of course, the extra cost of the motor-generators).

Also, since the regen hybrids have never been expected to store large amounts of electrical energy, their weight penalty from the battery is minimal compare to that of a plug-in which is expected to store much larger amounts of electrical energy.

 

[wapacz]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Now I'm waiting for the Volt....and praying that the price is lowered enough so avg people can and will buy it!


Ditto. I've already decided that my next vehicle purchase will be a plug-in hybrid, and everything I've read about the Volt makes me want one. I'm just waiting on what the purchase price will be...


I just don't really get why "plug-in hybrids" are seen by so many as the "holy grail" hybrid. I strongly prefer the regenerative design, as Toyota is currently selling. Now, if a plug-in also has regenerative capability, that's great. Remember that there's no engergy "free lunch."

You have to pay to "fill" a plug-in's "electrical tank" just as you have to pay to fill a gasoline tank. With a regenerative hybrid, you "fill" the battery with "re-used" energy that you've already paid for, and on the second "go 'round" you get to use it for "free" (ignoring, of course, the extra cost of the motor-generators).

Also, since the regen hybrids have never been expected to store large amounts of electrical energy, their weight penalty from the battery is minimal compare to that of a plug-in which is expected to store much larger amounts of electrical energy.


I would think you would have to have a regenerative setup if you wanted to get any type of range without a really huge battery.

Any ways with a serial hybrid it is crazy easy to get power out of slowing down. As you just use the drive motors and turn them into generators that induce drag on the wheels and slow you down. They do this on trains and then turn it into heat, believe it is called dynamic breaking. I think a read in the past few months that on trains they where looking making use of this feature to take power and store it to batteries for later use.


edit: I was right it is called dynamic breaking. Here is a link to the wiki article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_brake

 

[bob_ninja]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
....
You have to pay to "fill" a plug-in's "electrical tank" just as you have to pay to fill a gasoline tank. With a regenerative hybrid, you "fill" the battery with "re-used" energy that you've already paid for, and on the second "go 'round" you get to use it for "free" (ignoring, of course, the extra cost of the motor-generators).
...


You have to pay for any energy form, of course. The problem is trying to figure out how much is it going to cost. We always want 2 things for ongoing costs like fuel:
a) predictable, stable
b) cheap

Gasoline used to have both attributes for decades. Gasoline price was stable and cheap. So everyone was happy in the past. However, that changed in the past few years. 70s oil shock was a preview and now we are entering the stage of many regular oil shocks to come. Regardless of how much demand falls, old oil fields keep producing less and less every year even lower.

Faced with unpredictable gasoline costs it is natural to seek alternatives.

Electric has some key advantages:
- anyone can stick a turbine/panels in their backyard
- electricity can be generated from many sources (nclear, coal, wind, etc.)

Thus having far greater diversity of sources including in the worst case private turbines/panels means stable/lower costs for electricity. Meanwhile we have zero diversity of oil sources and zero control over them.

At the end of the day a driver wants the option of *NOT* having to go to a gas station and paying too high a price. Today even Prius drivers don't have that option. Volt drivers will have that option.

All that being said, Volt is not going to happen any time soon since GM is short on money so .... Pure electric vehicle remains more of a dream for now.

 

[PandaBear]

The problem with plug in is the battery gets worn out much quicker. Toyota calibrate the charge/discharge pattern of their pack so that it "should" last 150k easily, but with it converted to plug in, you may wear it out in 30k.

Now how much gas can you buy with a new battery pack every 30k?




The problem with serial hybrid is the efficiency loss between the generator that connects to the engine and the motor that powers the wheel, and the additional cost of the generator and the control electronics. We've seen first hand in 1996-1998 in FutureCar challenge; those teams with serial setup could never match the efficiency of the parallel setup, some are getting even worse mileage than a stock car they modify from. A well tuned engine/transmission gear ratio in a parallel setup will always be more efficient than a serial setup, at the expense of control system (ECU) complexity.

 

[Samilcar]

Originally Posted By: bob_ninja

At the end of the day a driver wants the option of *NOT* having to go to a gas station and paying too high a price. Today even Prius drivers don't have that option. Volt drivers will have that option.


This is the main attraction for me of a plug in hybrid like the Volt. $1.00/gal energy equivalent from my local coal-fired power plant, with no worries of that price quintupling in a month. A 40 mile range is sufficient for what I use on a daily basis, and if I need to go over that, I can choose to fire up the onboard gas engine.

Price stability plus relatively cheap energy cost plus domestic energy security equals WINNA!

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: bob_ninja

At the end of the day a driver wants the option of *NOT* having to go to a gas station and paying too high a price. Today even Prius drivers don't have that option. Volt drivers will have that option.


This is the main attraction for me of a plug in hybrid like the Volt. $1.00/gal energy equivalent from my local coal-fired power plant, with no worries of that price quintupling in a month. A 40 mile range is sufficient for what I use on a daily basis, and if I need to go over that, I can choose to fire up the onboard gas engine.

Price stability plus relatively cheap energy cost plus domestic energy security equals WINNA!


OTOH, let's not kid ourselves. If you're plugging a car into the "grid", through your power meter, every day, you will very quickly discover that there's no "energy free lunch."

It's true that the HSD hybrids (the Prius being one of the six) do need gasoline. But that said, they are, to varying extents (Prius to the max, Lexus LS to the least) to make maximum use of regenerative braking to charge their batteries.

Regenerative recharging is essentially free -- plugging into the grid is most certainly not free.