Toyota ECHO & Sludge?

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quote:
Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
IBJANKY, DO your home work!!! Their is a cornacopia of information on this site alone about Toyota's high insolubles,varnish and sludge. You have hundreds of posts on this site alone about the 3.0V6 and 2.2I4 as well as peoples on going UOA! What site am I going to link you too that is better then this site and provides more information? Terry Dyson has posted an imense amount on this very subject. Bob Winters the origanator of this site also has posted a lot of information about this subject as he worked closely with a dealership in Fl. on this issue. You also have people that work on mostly Toyota's for a liveing runnning import garages that have also posted volumes about this subject. The information is all on this site but you will need to spend some time useing the search function and just reading.

You can also look at UOA and see that in many cases insolubles not milage or time was the limiting factor. I had an insolubles reading of .5 with .6 being the cutoff point after only 3500 miles in 6 months with one of M1's premier oils their M1R! This is in a 2003 Camry 2AZ-FE I4.

Now if you look at the Toyota V8's this does not seem to be as much of an issue.

As Toyota's few sludge monster's the internet is full of sites about them. Google it.
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I AM doing my homework... why do you think I'm posting here?

And last time I checked, I wasn't talking about the Toyota 2.2L/3.0L engines. I already know that they are sludge monsters.

We're talking SPECIFICALLY about the 1NZ-FE 1.5L engine, aren't we? What makes you think it's prone to sludge like the 2.2L/3.0L?

I did Google it, and found out that the sludge problem was common in the Toyota 3.0 liter V6 or 2.2 liter 4-cylinder engines (commonly used engines in Camrys). There's no mention of the 1NZ-FE engine. I also tried searching here on BITOG forums. If I'm missing something, please show me some links.

I'm just trying to find some answers, and so far, you haven't shown me anything that states the 1NZ-FE engine is prone to sludge.
 
IBanky, The engine in your Echo may not be one of the sludge monster but it is still worth while for you to read about them. Consider it an education or primer on why Toyota's I4 even the AZ and ZZ series have insoluble issues! No one said that your engine was prone to sludge but I did say they are prone to high insolubles which are a sludge purcusor.
 
quote:
Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
IBanky, The engine in your Echo may not be one of the sludge monster but it is still worth while for you to read about them. Consider it an education or primer on why Toyota's I4 even the AZ and ZZ series have insoluble issues! No one said that your engine was prone to sludge but I did say they are prone to high insolubles which are a sludge purcusor.
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John,how do we know they are prone to high insolubles?The few UOA results we see here on BITOG doesn't tell the story.There are literally millions of these engines out there running with nary a problem.These Toyota motors have been fine sludge free designs with really minimal care.
 
quote:
Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
IBanky, The engine in your Echo may not be one of the sludge monster but it is still worth while for you to read about them. Consider it an education or primer on why Toyota's I4 even the AZ and ZZ series have insoluble issues! No one said that your engine was prone to sludge but I did say they are prone to high insolubles which are a sludge purcusor.
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I don't have an Echo, but the car I'm going to purchase will have the same engine (Scion xB), and that's why I'm doing all the reading I can before I actually purchase the car.

John, sorry to say, but so far you haven't really shown me any proof that this specific engine is prone to high insolubles and/or sludge.

Show me some links, used oil analysis, whatever... just show me SOMETHING!

I've searched and searched, but haven't found anything that shows anything negative about the 1NZ-FE engine.

And please stay on topic. We're talking SPECIFICALLY about the 1NZ-FE engine only.
 
I own a 2003 Echo since new and have been using Mobil 1 5W30 oil exclusively. Prior installing a Frantz oil bypass filter on my echo I noticed the oil turned very dark after 3k miles of driving. I always changed the synthetic oil and filter every 3k miles, and could feel the engine ran a lot smoother afterwards. Personally I think 5k OCI on conventional oil is too long. Right now I change the TP in the bypass filter every 3k miles with 1 qt. of makeup oil. The oil stays clean all the time.
 
quote:
Originally posted by sifan:
I own a 2003 Echo since new and have been using Mobil 1 5W30 oil exclusively. Prior installing a Frantz oil bypass filter on my echo I noticed the oil turned very dark after 3k miles of driving. I always changed the synthetic oil and filter every 3k miles, and could feel the engine ran a lot smoother afterwards. Personally I think 5k OCI on conventional oil is too long. Right now I change the TP in the bypass filter every 3k miles with 1 qt. of makeup oil. The oil stays clean all the time.
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Just because oil is dark doesn't necessarily mean that it's already gone bad
 
quote:
Originally posted by sifan:
Hmm... I believe the used oil analysis only gives the indication of engine wear by counting the metal presence in the used oil, not the state of health of the used oil itself.
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You believe WRONG

A used oil analysis will not only show engine wear numbers, but is also conclusive as to how much life (amount of active additive) is left in the oil (TBN)
 
IBJanky,You are not looking hard enough. The patern is their. Engine familys share simalar design concepts within a manufacture. The trend for high insolubles with all of Toyota's modern I4 is well established. They have reduced the OCI on a lot of models in recent years to try to reduce oil related issues. All that I am saying is that you should not think that any cheap 5W30 and a 6 month or 7500 mile OCI is practicle for this engine no matter what vechile it is in! When you get one put it to the test and use their oil and their maximum allowable oil change interval!! Test the oil with UOA and see if insolubles are not an issue!Wear metals almost never an issue with any of Toyota's engines unless their is a problem with the engine or it's controls!

If you want on topic why don't you read on on that engines white papers from the SAE. I think you find their valve seat design interesting as it is not serviceable at all. So the head not the entire engine is basicly dispossable. Their term for it is "Laser Clad". In the future someone might come up with a way to service it but at present it is not serviceable.

If I really wanted to I could creat a web site that says exactly what I am saying to you now!! I could link you to it as well! Would it make what I am saying here any more relavant? Look at the trends! Terry Dyson himself has said exactly what I am telling you right now about this engine haveing high insolubles! I guess he does not know what he is talking about either?I know he is not going to show you his propiratary data base.
 
quote:
Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
IBJanky,You are not looking hard enough. The patern is their. Engine familys share simalar design concepts within a manufacture. The trend for high insolubles with all of Toyota's modern I4 is well established. They have reduced the OCI on a lot of models in recent years to try to reduce oil related issues. All that I am saying is that you should not think that any cheap 5W30 and a 6 month or 7500 mile OCI is practicle for this engine no matter what vechile it is in! When you get one put it to the test and use their oil and their maximum allowable oil change interval!! Test the oil with UOA and see if insolubles are not an issue!Wear metals almost never an issue with any of Toyota's engines unless their is a problem with the engine or it's controls!

If you want on topic why don't you read on on that engines white papers from the SAE. I think you find their valve seat design interesting as it is not serviceable at all. So the head not the entire engine is basicly dispossable. Their term for it is "Laser Clad". In the future someone might come up with a way to service it but at present it is not serviceable.

If I really wanted to I could creat a web site that says exactly what I am saying to you now!! I could link you to it as well! Would it make what I am saying here any more relavant? Look at the trends! Terry Dyson himself has said exactly what I am telling you right now about this engine haveing high insolubles! I guess he does not know what he is talking about either?I know he is not going to show you his propiratary data base.
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Give me some links, I want to read up on it

Also... I would never run ANY conventional oil for 7,500 miles.

Although, I have been reading some used oil analysis of Chevron/Havoline oil that have run close to 5,000 miles and have performed quite well.
 
Consumer Reports has an article in their latest issue that touches on the oil sludge problem some auto manufacturers are faced with... including Toyota. Apparently, it has something to do with the design of the engine. One recommendation is to follow the "severe" maintenance schedule if your car has one of the affected engines.

Here are some links:

Audi: http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=152&did=1054
Chrysler: http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=149&did=1039
Mercedes: http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=149&did=981
Saab: http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=153&did=1051
Toyota: http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=150&did=566
VW: http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=151&did=1085
 
I looked at the used oil analysis section for comments of Toyota Corolla's or Echo's engine being sludge proned, the only thing I found was a statement from Terry Dyson about the 1.8 ltr engine (Corolla) in this link:

Corolla used oil analysis

Btw, Terry is not saying that the Corolla engines are sludge monsters like the 4 cyl. & V6's in the Camry's.
 
quote:
Originally posted by sjlee:
Consumer Reports has an article in their latest issue that touches on the oil sludge problem some auto manufacturers are faced with... including Toyota. Apparently, it has something to do with the design of the engine. One recommendation is to follow the "severe" maintenance schedule if your car has one of the affected engines.

Here are some links:

Audi: http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=152&did=1054
Chrysler: http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=149&did=1039
Mercedes: http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=149&did=981
Saab: http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=153&did=1051
Toyota: http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=150&did=566
VW: http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=151&did=1085
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Like I was saying, it only talks about the 2.2L and the 3.0L engines

It has no mention of the 1NZ-FE 1.5L engine, which is a totally different engine
 
IBJanky - If you are seriously thinking of buying a Scion XB, I would suggest you do the following once you get it. For every 3k miles clean the throttle body/IAC/MAF, and put a bottle of 12 oz Techron in the gas tank. Replace the PCV every 10k miles, and the air filter every 15k miles. Do not use K&N air filter (its oil will foul up MAF plus poor filtering because I had tried it). I did replace PVC and air filter by the schedule, but overlooked the rest. My Echo's engine started to develop sever engine pinging around 20k miles due to carbon buildup. Another Echo owner with 22k miles has the same problem. Even though a oil bypass filter was installed around 15k miles the engine pinging seems to return every 3k lately. I wish I had started cleaning the TB/IAC/MAF more often when the engine was new to reduce carbon buildup. My Echo has 32k miles on ODO now. I just apply two treatments of Techron back to back to get rid of the last pinging. I guess the carbon once built up inside the engine is hard to remove right away. I have tried FP and LC for 7k miles without success. Techron works very effectively in getting rid of pinging and restoring engine performance.
 
quote:
Originally posted by sifan:
IBJanky - If you are seriously thinking of buying a Scion XB, I would suggest you do the following once you get it. For every 3k miles clean the throttle body/IAC/MAF, and put a bottle of 12 oz Techron in the gas tank. Replace the PCV every 10k miles, and the air filter every 15k miles. Do not use K&N air filter (its oil will foul up MAF plus poor filtering because I had tried it). I did replace PVC and air filter by the schedule, but overlooked the rest. My Echo's engine started to develop sever engine pinging around 20k miles due to carbon buildup. Another Echo owner with 22k miles has the same problem. Even though a oil bypass filter was installed around 15k miles the engine pinging seems to return every 3k lately. I wish I had started cleaning the TB/IAC/MAF more often when the engine was new to reduce carbon buildup. My Echo has 32k miles on ODO now. I just apply two treatments of Techron back to back to get rid of the last pinging. I guess the carbon once built up inside the engine is hard to remove right away. I have tried FP and LC for 7k miles without success. Techron works very effectively in getting rid of pinging and restoring engine performance.
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This doesn't seem much of an endorsement of the xB engine.

In the interest of balance, I do 30K tuneups( IAW owners manual) run FP with 5-9K mile syn oil changes and don't have this pinging problem. I didn't have it even when I didn't run FP. Currently @ 67K miles.

-T
03' E-cho.
 
I heard this arguement before. Well, one time I did the oil change (prior the installation of bypass filter) after 4k miles just because I was lazy. The used oil was so black and thick that I though sluge was in my engine. With the bypass filter installed I changed the TP after 4k miles one time just because I was lazy again. The used TP was so black that it looked like a roll of carbon. I think the Echo's engine is very hard on oil.
 
quote:
Originally posted by sifan:
I heard this arguement before. Well, one time I did the oil change (prior the installation of bypass filter) after 4k miles just because I was lazy. The used oil was so black and thick that I though sluge was in my engine. With the bypass filter installed I changed the TP after 4k miles one time just because I was lazy again. The used TP was so black that it looked like a roll of carbon. I think the Echo's engine is very hard on oil.
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What you "think" about the used oil from your engine isn't very conclusive

Only a used oil analysis will tell the REAL story
 
Hmm... I believe the used oil analysis only gives the indication of engine wear by counting the metal presence in the used oil, not the state of health of the used oil itself.
 
Like John says if you are going to extend the interval a little stick with synthetic like Mobil 1. I would not run a 5000 mile interval with dino in a Toyota motor unless I was borrowing the car. If you plan on keeping the vehicle till its usefullness is no longer run synthetics.

Toyotas are hard on conventional oils!

Daily Drives:
-2003 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner,2.7 liter, 4 cylinder, Mobil 1 5w30 ODO 16300
-1995 Toyota 4-Runner,3.0 liter,6 cylinder, Mobil 1 10w30 ODO 96200
http://community.webshots.com/user/amkeer
 
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