the manual clearly states use either a gl4 or gl5 80w90. But back in my VW days i know there's a lot of controversy and downright confusion when it comes to gl4 vs gl5(some vw's would grind with gl5). In canada, gl4 is basically nonexistent. You can go to the dealer and get the correct P/N and pay $30/bottle (and i need 5 of them)..similar situation with all OEM oils from ford/GM. Now Canadian Tire has their in house brand gear oil, and it says it meets both gl-4 and gl-5. Can anybody give me a reason NOT to use this oil?
Toyota camry/solara v6 MTF
- Thread starter nick3501
- Start date
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Not many of us are conversant in Canadian Tire gear lubes!
Can you get Amsoil or Redline? They are superb and a sure thing.
Worth a wait.
Can you get Amsoil or Redline? They are superb and a sure thing.
Worth a wait.
5 liters would be at least $80 shipping/duties alone . I know from research on here that gl-5 oil seem like a bad idea, but when I open the toyota manual and it recommends gl-5 I am left confused. ALL oil is gl-5 in the parts stores, some say gl4 and gl5 but..who knows? NAPA has a full synthetic pennzoil that indicates for toyota manual boxes, but it is a gl-5 as well. How do I find the original toyota p/n, maybe try to find out exactly whats in it from the factory. If its a gl-5, then case closed.
Why do you need 5L?
My yotabox is 2 US qts.
My yotabox is 2 US qts.
Guessing @ year say 2008, Amsoil lookup says 5.3 pints.
4.5L is a crazy amount for a car manual IMHO
4.5L is a crazy amount for a car manual IMHO
well, i did a lot of searching and came up empty. Dealers all have their own gl4 manual tranny oil, ford is $26.50+ tax per bottle, GM is about $22. There is also synchromesh, which i would think is too thin for a 75w90 replacement. redline and amsoil arent easily available around here.
Here is what i have so far: Quaker State conventional gear oil. Their website says nothing, very little information. Anyone know what the ratings are on regular quaker state 80w90?
Napa "value" gear oil. napacanada.com says its manufactured by 'safety-kleen' which is an oil recycling company. no word of its API GL rating, local napa doesn't have any in stock and i need to pay to order. Any information on this gear oil? part #16040 Manufacturer:Safety-Kleen,Style Name:Gear Oil GLX,Synthetic:No,Weight Rating:80W90,Size:1 l
Theres also napa "premium" in the white bottle, made by valvoline. I read on another post that this is gl5 LSD oil.
Here is what i have so far: Quaker State conventional gear oil. Their website says nothing, very little information. Anyone know what the ratings are on regular quaker state 80w90?
Napa "value" gear oil. napacanada.com says its manufactured by 'safety-kleen' which is an oil recycling company. no word of its API GL rating, local napa doesn't have any in stock and i need to pay to order. Any information on this gear oil? part #16040 Manufacturer:Safety-Kleen,Style Name:Gear Oil GLX,Synthetic:No,Weight Rating:80W90,Size:1 l
Theres also napa "premium" in the white bottle, made by valvoline. I read on another post that this is gl5 LSD oil.
You need an MTF not just a gear fluid!!
Did you look for Amsoil or Red Line dealers in your area? I know there is a lookup on the Amsoil website for that. If nothing on Red Line then try firing an email to
Dave
at
RedLineOil
dot
Com
Any of their MTF fluids would be cheaper than OE and most likely superior. GL-5 (now it's SAE J2360) is excellent for gears, bushings, linkage and bearings ... but not for synchros.
www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf (Thanks Widman!)
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1231182
Something easier to find would be Pennzoil/GM Synchromesh or an MTF from another OE like Honda, Toyota, etc. Last time I looked I could get GM Synchromesh for $10 a bottle but I had to call around.
Can you give us details on the application? Year/Model/Engine?
Did you look for Amsoil or Red Line dealers in your area? I know there is a lookup on the Amsoil website for that. If nothing on Red Line then try firing an email to
Dave
at
RedLineOil
dot
Com
Any of their MTF fluids would be cheaper than OE and most likely superior. GL-5 (now it's SAE J2360) is excellent for gears, bushings, linkage and bearings ... but not for synchros.
www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf (Thanks Widman!)
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1231182
Something easier to find would be Pennzoil/GM Synchromesh or an MTF from another OE like Honda, Toyota, etc. Last time I looked I could get GM Synchromesh for $10 a bottle but I had to call around.
Can you give us details on the application? Year/Model/Engine?
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thanks for the reply, the car in question is an 01 toyota solara v6 with a 5 speed gearbox. In the cars owners manual under transaxle fluid it says "API GL4 or GL5, 75w90 4.2L" and that's it. So it really makes me wonder what toyota used as a factory fill on this car. there arent any close redline or aamsoil dealers, the closest place to stock redline still wants $20/bottle for mt-90. I have used synchromesh in the past but it just seems too thin for a 75w90 replacement, and even its $14 a bottle from the local gm dealer.
This part of the link you posted got my interest:
Synchromesh transmission oils
General Motors, Honda and others have developed oils that combine the best shift characteristics with their transmission components for reduced wear. These products in general could classify as GL4 oils if they wanted to, but actually when we analyze their components they are very simi
lar to 5W30 diesel motor oils, with a few friction modifiers added. They are way too thin for a Corvair transmission.
So what about an oil like shell rotella, 15w40...how would that stack up against a GL4 MTL type fluid like redline MT90 or aamsoil MTL, id be interested to see if they have a similar analysis.
This part of the link you posted got my interest:
Synchromesh transmission oils
General Motors, Honda and others have developed oils that combine the best shift characteristics with their transmission components for reduced wear. These products in general could classify as GL4 oils if they wanted to, but actually when we analyze their components they are very simi
lar to 5W30 diesel motor oils, with a few friction modifiers added. They are way too thin for a Corvair transmission.
So what about an oil like shell rotella, 15w40...how would that stack up against a GL4 MTL type fluid like redline MT90 or aamsoil MTL, id be interested to see if they have a similar analysis.
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Originally Posted By: nick3501
So what about an oil like shell rotella, 15w40...how would that stack up against a GL4 MTL type fluid like redline MT90 or aamsoil MTL, id be interested to see if they have a similar analysis.
If you're going to try a diesel engine oil then try to stick with a 0w40 if you can. 5w40 would be the next best. It's not going to be a proper fluid for the application but it might work OK. You won't know until you've tried it and done at least 3 consecutive UOA on it to see what kind of elements show up and if they're increasing in concentration. If the tranny oil hasn't been changed yet then significant damage has already been done and you're now trying to 'save' it by minimizing wear. In this case any change is a good one.
The first fluid change should be done at the first 5k or 10k mark but the dealer/manual won't normally tell you about that.
I don't expect the 0w40 to perform as well as the GM Synchromesh but it might provide better protection (not that you necessarily need it). My best recommendation would probably be Red Line MTL, MT85 or the Amsoil equivalent but I'd need to do digging to try to narrow it down. At this point it's about what you're trying to achieve.
Is it:
- One fluid change for the least amount of money?
- Reduce the wear and extend the life as long as possible?
- Maximize performance with the least amount of investment?
Also note that Widman makes special mention of the Corvair requirements and these do not apply to this transmission. In fact there are very few that have similar requirements and those are found primarily in Porsche, Subaru, and older Audi transmissions.
So what about an oil like shell rotella, 15w40...how would that stack up against a GL4 MTL type fluid like redline MT90 or aamsoil MTL, id be interested to see if they have a similar analysis.
If you're going to try a diesel engine oil then try to stick with a 0w40 if you can. 5w40 would be the next best. It's not going to be a proper fluid for the application but it might work OK. You won't know until you've tried it and done at least 3 consecutive UOA on it to see what kind of elements show up and if they're increasing in concentration. If the tranny oil hasn't been changed yet then significant damage has already been done and you're now trying to 'save' it by minimizing wear. In this case any change is a good one.
The first fluid change should be done at the first 5k or 10k mark but the dealer/manual won't normally tell you about that.
I don't expect the 0w40 to perform as well as the GM Synchromesh but it might provide better protection (not that you necessarily need it). My best recommendation would probably be Red Line MTL, MT85 or the Amsoil equivalent but I'd need to do digging to try to narrow it down. At this point it's about what you're trying to achieve.
Is it:
- One fluid change for the least amount of money?
- Reduce the wear and extend the life as long as possible?
- Maximize performance with the least amount of investment?
Also note that Widman makes special mention of the Corvair requirements and these do not apply to this transmission. In fact there are very few that have similar requirements and those are found primarily in Porsche, Subaru, and older Audi transmissions.
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actually i need to change an axle, and once I pull it out I will loose most of the oil. I went on aamsoil website and did the vehicle lookup, and it too lists gl5 gear oils as being recommended for the transmission. my guess is aamsoil is just basing that info off of toyota's spec.
What I want is to not spend over $100 on MTF, but OEM fluids and botique oils like redline will easily cost that seeing as I need 5 liters. But most importantly I want the transmission to be properly lubricated and have good shift characteristics.
What I want is to not spend over $100 on MTF, but OEM fluids and botique oils like redline will easily cost that seeing as I need 5 liters. But most importantly I want the transmission to be properly lubricated and have good shift characteristics.
What's your postal code? What shops have you contacted? Maybe I can help find you some alternatives.
It took a while before I found a shop that sells Red Line at a reasonable price and it's not close by. I would also contact CRP and see if there is a dealer close to you. CRP distributes Pentosin in Canada and they have some fantastic fluids. The one you'd be looking for is MTF-2 (a lighter version of Red Line MTL).
http://www.crpindustries.com/pentosin/contactus.asp
It took a while before I found a shop that sells Red Line at a reasonable price and it's not close by. I would also contact CRP and see if there is a dealer close to you. CRP distributes Pentosin in Canada and they have some fantastic fluids. The one you'd be looking for is MTF-2 (a lighter version of Red Line MTL).
http://www.crpindustries.com/pentosin/contactus.asp
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
So what about an oil like shell rotella, 15w40...how would that stack up against a GL4 MTL type fluid like redline MT90 or aamsoil MTL, id be interested to see if they have a similar analysis.
They do not have a similar analysis nor do they have the correct friction modifiers.
Quote:
Here is what i have so far: Quaker State conventional gear oil. Their website says nothing, very little information. Anyone know what the ratings are on regular quaker state 80w90?
Napa "value" gear oil. napacanada.com says its manufactured by 'safety-kleen' which is an oil recycling company. no word of its API GL rating, local napa doesn't have any in stock and i need to pay to order. Any information on this gear oil? part #16040 Manufacturer:Safety-Kleen,Style Name:Gear Oil GLX,Synthetic:No,Weight Rating:80W90,Size:1 l
Theres also napa "premium" in the white bottle, made by valvoline. I read on another post that this is gl5 LSD oil.
The GL-5's are for differentials not for Manual Transmissions.
Why cheap out with MO and Diffy lubes when the appplication specific MTL's have all that is needed?
So what about an oil like shell rotella, 15w40...how would that stack up against a GL4 MTL type fluid like redline MT90 or aamsoil MTL, id be interested to see if they have a similar analysis.
They do not have a similar analysis nor do they have the correct friction modifiers.
Quote:
Here is what i have so far: Quaker State conventional gear oil. Their website says nothing, very little information. Anyone know what the ratings are on regular quaker state 80w90?
Napa "value" gear oil. napacanada.com says its manufactured by 'safety-kleen' which is an oil recycling company. no word of its API GL rating, local napa doesn't have any in stock and i need to pay to order. Any information on this gear oil? part #16040 Manufacturer:Safety-Kleen,Style Name:Gear Oil GLX,Synthetic:No,Weight Rating:80W90,Size:1 l
Theres also napa "premium" in the white bottle, made by valvoline. I read on another post that this is gl5 LSD oil.
The GL-5's are for differentials not for Manual Transmissions.
Why cheap out with MO and Diffy lubes when the appplication specific MTL's have all that is needed?
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MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
This part of the link you posted got my interest:
Synchromesh transmission oils
General Motors, Honda and others have developed oils that combine the best shift characteristics with their transmission components for reduced wear. These products in general could classify as GL4 oils if they wanted to, but actually when we analyze their components they are very simi
lar to 5W30 diesel motor oils, with a few friction modifiers added. They are way too thin for a Corvair transmission.
Well, whomever wrote this does not know what the [removed] he is talking about.
There is so much misinformation out there from nonforumulators.
This part of the link you posted got my interest:
Synchromesh transmission oils
General Motors, Honda and others have developed oils that combine the best shift characteristics with their transmission components for reduced wear. These products in general could classify as GL4 oils if they wanted to, but actually when we analyze their components they are very simi
lar to 5W30 diesel motor oils, with a few friction modifiers added. They are way too thin for a Corvair transmission.
Well, whomever wrote this does not know what the [removed] he is talking about.
There is so much misinformation out there from nonforumulators.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Well, whomever wrote this does not know what the [removed] he is talking about.
There is so much misinformation out there from nonforumulators.
And you really have no idea who wrote that?
Care to elaborate?
Well, whomever wrote this does not know what the [removed] he is talking about.
There is so much misinformation out there from nonforumulators.
And you really have no idea who wrote that?
Care to elaborate?
Last edited:
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
...These products in general could classify as GL4 oils if they wanted to, but actually when we analyze their components they are very similar to 5W30 diesel motor oils, with a few friction modifiers added. They are way too thin for a Corvair transmission.
No offense meant to Mr. Widman as I had never seen this posted before, but he is incorrect on a number of points.
In the history of manual transmission oil development, early gear lubes and motor oils were used in those three and four speed transmissions, but the cold temperature shifting performance and the wear resistance was lacking.
Modern application specific manual transmission fluids are more than just modified HDEO motor oils.
Modern application specific manual transmission fluids are formulated with Anti-wear additives that do provide a GL-4 level of wear protection. In addition, special friction modifiers were found that allow synchronizer assembly engagement with the correct static and dynamic friction characteristics.
The last part of the statement implies that synchromesh transmission fluids cannot be thicker than 9.X Pennzoil Synchromesh) or 10.5 cSt (GM Synchromesh). This myth originated with the assumption that since the labeling on the Pennzoil or GM Synchromesh stated "Synchromesh," it meant that only MTF's of 9 to 10 cSt are really synchromesh fluids. This is incorrect, as MT fluids can be formulated to 20 cSt or more.
MT application transmission fluids have evolved from the original 9.0 to 10.X cSt viscosity range to now cover the range of 6.X to 20 cSt.
As with ATF fluids, I see the viscosity of future MTL's going even lower in order to wrench out that last fraction fuel savings.
...These products in general could classify as GL4 oils if they wanted to, but actually when we analyze their components they are very similar to 5W30 diesel motor oils, with a few friction modifiers added. They are way too thin for a Corvair transmission.
No offense meant to Mr. Widman as I had never seen this posted before, but he is incorrect on a number of points.
In the history of manual transmission oil development, early gear lubes and motor oils were used in those three and four speed transmissions, but the cold temperature shifting performance and the wear resistance was lacking.
Modern application specific manual transmission fluids are more than just modified HDEO motor oils.
Modern application specific manual transmission fluids are formulated with Anti-wear additives that do provide a GL-4 level of wear protection. In addition, special friction modifiers were found that allow synchronizer assembly engagement with the correct static and dynamic friction characteristics.
The last part of the statement implies that synchromesh transmission fluids cannot be thicker than 9.X Pennzoil Synchromesh) or 10.5 cSt (GM Synchromesh). This myth originated with the assumption that since the labeling on the Pennzoil or GM Synchromesh stated "Synchromesh," it meant that only MTF's of 9 to 10 cSt are really synchromesh fluids. This is incorrect, as MT fluids can be formulated to 20 cSt or more.
MT application transmission fluids have evolved from the original 9.0 to 10.X cSt viscosity range to now cover the range of 6.X to 20 cSt.
As with ATF fluids, I see the viscosity of future MTL's going even lower in order to wrench out that last fraction fuel savings.
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Well, Im back to square 1. I gave the dealers a call, Ford motocraft was $33/bottle. Mopar was $27 bottle, Honda only has their MTF which is quite thin, GM has a real cluster of different P/N's that superceed each other but ultimately they have syncrhomesh friction modified or non modified, $15/bottle. They also have ac delco gl-4 that runs $25/bottle. sheesh.
Napa, carquest, canadian tire, wal mart, etc all carry GL-5 of different brands. Napa can order pennzoil synthetic gl-4 for $27/bottle. Called around, closest redline dealer is north of toronto, about 1.5 hour drive, they sell mt-90 for $19/bottle. Shipping any botique oils is VERY expensive. Amsoil is just as hard to find as redline.
here is something interesting; http://www.allpar.com/fix/gear-oil.html
Are there any VOA's comparing motor oils to MTL type fluids? I know in my bike shell rotella or M/C oils can only be used because they contain Zinc and other anti-wear additives for the cams.
Napa, carquest, canadian tire, wal mart, etc all carry GL-5 of different brands. Napa can order pennzoil synthetic gl-4 for $27/bottle. Called around, closest redline dealer is north of toronto, about 1.5 hour drive, they sell mt-90 for $19/bottle. Shipping any botique oils is VERY expensive. Amsoil is just as hard to find as redline.
here is something interesting; http://www.allpar.com/fix/gear-oil.html
Are there any VOA's comparing motor oils to MTL type fluids? I know in my bike shell rotella or M/C oils can only be used because they contain Zinc and other anti-wear additives for the cams.
MolaKule
Staff member
Well nick, we can suggest MTL's but we can't control the pricing.
Quote:
here is something interesting; http://www.allpar.com/fix/gear-oil.html
I read that and still do not know what his point is. He is really confused.
"After a bit of research and phone calls to the help lines of Valvoline, Texaco-Havoline, Pennzoil, Quaker State, Castrol (who were shockingly unhelpful), and Exxon-Mobil, I've found what appears to be the only off-the-shelf replacement lubricant that meets the standards of the OEM lubricant."
What was the question he asked those companies? How you phrase a question depends on what kind of answer you get.
Current API PCMO's oils have only about 1/4 the AW adds that I think are necessary to protect the internals for MTL's.
If I had to use a MO in a pinch for a weight spec of 75W90, I might try a HD diesel oil of 5W40 with at least 1200 ppm of ZDDP and high calcium.
Quote:
here is something interesting; http://www.allpar.com/fix/gear-oil.html
I read that and still do not know what his point is. He is really confused.
"After a bit of research and phone calls to the help lines of Valvoline, Texaco-Havoline, Pennzoil, Quaker State, Castrol (who were shockingly unhelpful), and Exxon-Mobil, I've found what appears to be the only off-the-shelf replacement lubricant that meets the standards of the OEM lubricant."
What was the question he asked those companies? How you phrase a question depends on what kind of answer you get.
Current API PCMO's oils have only about 1/4 the AW adds that I think are necessary to protect the internals for MTL's.
If I had to use a MO in a pinch for a weight spec of 75W90, I might try a HD diesel oil of 5W40 with at least 1200 ppm of ZDDP and high calcium.
yes i agree he is a bit vague. The most affordable MTF is GM synchromesh...Toyota recommends 75w90 (or 80w I forget) GL-4 or GL-5, which is odd, because every other car manufacturer I have looked up emphasizes gl-4 only. I cant help but feel toyota is lacking in their own specs, because we all know how poorly a full gl-5 performs (i've made that mistake many years back with castrol syntec in a VW)
Is synchromesh too thin? also, is the friction modified better than standard synchromesh?
Is synchromesh too thin? also, is the friction modified better than standard synchromesh?
wait a second...just realized I looked up the wrong part number for Pennzoil 75w90. Anyone have any idea what pennzoil synthetic 75w90 gl-4 p/n 56076 sells for at napa in Canada? Their closed tomorrow so ill stop by Monday, but i have a feeling ill just be hit with the same ~$30/bottle shell shocker ($170 after taxes when I buy 5 of em)
copied from napa's website: Recommended Transmission Type:Manual Trans Used By Nissan, Infinity, Kia, Suzuki, Toyota, Lexus & Some GM, Chrysler-Dodge, Ford, Mazda & Mitsubishi,Style Name
ZL Synthetic 75W-90 GL4,Meets New Car & Truck Warranty:Yes
copied from napa's website: Recommended Transmission Type:Manual Trans Used By Nissan, Infinity, Kia, Suzuki, Toyota, Lexus & Some GM, Chrysler-Dodge, Ford, Mazda & Mitsubishi,Style Name
ZL Synthetic 75W-90 GL4,Meets New Car & Truck Warranty:Yes- Status
