Toyota bZ4x: 4.4 hours (?!) to DC Fast Charge 0-100%

[E365]

Out of Spec Reviews just did a 0-100% DC fast charge test on the new Toyota bZ4x AWD. Took 4.4 hours to get to 99%. He had gave up before it actually hit 100%. No route-planning on board, no battery preconditioning, no plug-and-charge. Yikes.

Battery capacity is 72.8 kWh but the charger only delivered 61 kWh, so Toyota built in massive “buffers” into the pack.

Peak rate was only 87.8kw.

For comparison, most new EVs will do 0-100% in 1 hour or less. Even the original Bolt will do it in about half the time.

Note: The FWD bZ4x has a different battery and allegedly charges faster.

 

[Gokhan]

The YouTuber doesn't know what he is talking about.

DC-fast-charging is very hard on the current lithium-ion battery technology, substantially degrading the battery cycle life. As far as I know, the DC-fast-charging stops when the battery state of charge (SOC) reaches 80%, and from that point on, slow-charging is used. That's why it took so long to reach 100% SOC. You need to look at how long it takes to reach 80% at maximum charging power, and it is about 20 minutes for the bZ4X. If you charged current-state-of-the-art lithium-ion batteries to 100% SOC with DC-fast-charging, you wouldn't get more than 50–100 cycles or 15,000–30,000 miles out of them. Even DC-fast-charging to 80% SOC on a regular basis substantially decreases the battery cycle life. Avoid DC-fast-charging if you can. Toyota, unlike Tesla and some other companies, is very conservative, and they want their batteries to last at least 200,000 miles even with DC-fast-charging. Regularly DC-fast-charge a Tesla, and the battery probably wouldn't make it past the 50,000-mile mark if not less.

A Bit About Batteries | Tesla

www.tesla.com

How to Maximize your Tesla's Battery Efficiency and Life - Optiwatt

We’ve put together the comprehensive guide to maximizing your battery efficiency and extending your battery life.

getoptiwatt.com

 

[E365]

The YouTuber doesn't know what he is talking about.

DC-fast-charging is very hard on the current lithium-ion battery technology, substantially degrading the battery cycle life. As far as I know, the DC-fast-charging stops when the battery state of charge (SOC) reaches 80%, and from that point on, slow-charging is used. That's why it took so long to reach 100% SOC. You need to look at how long it takes to reach 80% at maximum charging power, and it is about 20 minutes for the bZ4X. If you charged current-state-of-the-art lithium-ion batteries to 100% SOC with DC-fast-charging, you wouldn't get more than 50–100 cycles or 15,000–30,000 miles out of them. Even DC-fast-charging to 80% SOC on a regular basis substantially decreases the battery cycle life. Avoid DC-fast-charging if you can. Toyota, unlike Tesla and some other companies, is very conservative, and they want their batteries to last at least 200,000 miles even with DC-fast-charging. Regularly DC-fast-charge a Tesla, and the battery probably wouldn't make it past the 50,000-mile mark if not less.

A Bit About Batteries | Tesla

www.tesla.com

Did you watch it? He literally mentions most of what you criticized. They mention all of that in every charging video they do. They’re among the most detailed charging breakdown videos anywhere.

And the battery never gets charged to an actual 100% to experience that severe degradation, no EV does. That’s why he mentioned the charger delivered 61kwh but the pack is rated at 72.8kwh total battery capacity. The car’s displayed “100%” is closer to 84% of the battery’s actually capacity.

 

[Gokhan]

Did you watch it? He literally mentions most of what you criticized. They mention all of that in every charging video they do. They’re among the most detailed charging breakdown videos anywhere.

And the battery never gets charged to an actual 100% to experience that severe degradation, no EV does. That’s why he mentioned the charger delivered 61kwh but the pack is rated at 72.8kwh total battery capacity. The car’s displayed “100%” is closer to 84% of the battery’s actually capacity.

So, what is the problem then? From 0% to 80% SOC, it took only 28 minutes. No one should use DC-fast-charging to charge beyond 80% SOC in any current EV with the existing lithium-ion battery technology, period.

There are going to be buffers at both 0% and 100%. Regenerative braking won't work at 100% if you don't have a buffer and you will need a jump start at 0% if you don't have a buffer. Moreover, the battery cycle life will seriously degrade at either end if you don't have a buffer.

Toyota has the longest battery warranty among all EVs: 1,000,000 km (620,000 miles)—thanks to their conservative design and approach:

The 2023 Toyota bZ4X Electric SUV Might Have a Ridiculous Warranty

When the 2023 Toyota bZ4X was announced, the automaker said it wants 90% battery capacity over 10 years. What will the warranty be like? Could it be unlimited?

www.motorbiscuit.com

 

[E365]

So, what is the problem then? From 0% to 80% SOC, it took only 28 minutes. No one should use DC-fast-charging to charge beyond 80% SOC in any current EV with the existing lithium-ion battery technology, period.

There are going to be buffers at both 0% and 100%. Regenerative braking won't work at 100% if you don't have a buffer and you will need a jump start at 0% if you don't have a buffer. Moreover, the battery cycle life will seriously degrade at either end if you don't have a buffer.

Toyota has the longest battery warranty among all EVs: 1,000,000 km (620,000 miles)—thanks to their conservative design and approach:

The 2023 Toyota bZ4X Electric SUV Might Have a Ridiculous Warranty

When the 2023 Toyota bZ4X was announced, the automaker said it wants 90% battery capacity over 10 years. What will the warranty be like? Could it be unlimited?

www.motorbiscuit.com

I guess we’re watching different videos…

It took 34 minutes to go from 0-60%. Then the charger shut off because the car was set to stop charging at 60%.

The 28 minutes @ 80% I’m guessing you saw (at timestamp 10:38) was the time it took to go from 60% to 80% on the 2nd session they started.

So an IONIQ 5 will charge 0-80% faster (26 minutes, in their testing) than a bZ4x will charge from 60-80% (28 minutes).

 

[Kiwi_ME]

He didn't mention ambient temperature but judging by the low "efficiency" it's pretty clear to me that a battery heater is in play for the duration. I see the same effect with my Kona when starting at under 20°C but for only 10 minutes approx. Once past that the car's overheads are very low, only 0.2 kW so the battery gets almost all the power, that's where the cumulative energy lines run parallel.
Generally EV battery cycle losses are about 2% so that will also reflect what's delivered v.s. stored and available for use shown as SoC%.

And regarding battery derating, that can often be found in the datasheet for the particular cell part number when they are sold for EV applications. In the case of the LG Energy E63 in my EV, the working range is 3.15 to 4.15 OCV while the Li-po raw range is 2.50 to 4.20 OCV. This derating may be around 95% of the raw energy. I took this info off the datasheet, which also contains separate degradation curves for various charging rates and aging.

 

[Gokhan]

I guess we’re watching different videos…

It took 34 minutes to go from 0-60%. Then the charger shut off because the car was set to stop charging at 60%.

The 28 minutes @ 80% I’m guessing you saw (at timestamp 10:38) was the time it took to go from 60% to 80% on the 2nd session they started.

So an IONIQ 5 will charge 0-80% faster (26 minutes, in their testing) than a bZ4x will charge from 60-80% (28 minutes).

We'll see more data on this when the bZ4X actually hits the road.

EVs are a new technology with questionable reliability. Currently, there is a 10-year/150,000-mile battery warranty requirement on plug-in hybrids thanks to California but nothing on battery electric vehicles. Hopefully, this will change soon and a 10-year warranty on EV batteries will also be required. OEMs are fighting it hard, as a battery costs $20,000 or so, making the vehicle a total loss when the battery fails. I remember in the 1990s, junk yards were full of brand-new-looking Hyundai Excels because they were so unreliable and it was not worth fixing their drivetrains when they failed. Don't be surprised if the junk yards are full of Hyundai Ioniq 5's in a few years from now. Toyota has the right approach by being conservative with battery charging.

 

[UncleDave]

Fast charge time to 100% is a metric no one cares about.
Nobody fast charges to 99 or 100% when traveling.
You fast charge to 75 or 80% and move on.

This vehicle is so far behind the curve, and charging rates so low it's basically unusable as a road trip car.

 

[E365]

Fast charge time to 100% is a metric no one cares about.
Nobody fast charges to 99 or 100% when traveling.
You fast charge to 75 or 80% and move on.

This vehicle is so far behind the curve, and charging rates so low it's basically unusable as a road trip car.

So you’re saying no human in history has ever wanted to fully charge their EV to 100% as fast as possible? Couldn’t disagree more.

I care. Why? Here in Minnesota, there’s ONE (non Tesla) DC fast charger station (EA) in the entire state. ONE. There is nowhere to “move on” to. Maximizing your range at that DC fast charger is critical.

 

[UncleDave]

So you’re saying no human in history has ever wanted to fully charge their EV to 100% as fast as possible? Couldn’t disagree more.

I care. Why? Here in Minnesota, there’s ONE (non Tesla) DC fast charger station (EA) in the entire state. ONE. There is nowhere to “move on” to. Maximizing your range at that DC fast charger is critical.

I didnt say that - you did, then agreed with yourself.

Something like 99% of all fast DC charging is done to 80%

Are there reasons you may want to do it - sure, they are far from the majority use case.

Plug share finds a bunch between diadem/ ccs and tesla at 50KW and up.

 

[E365]

I didnt say that - you did, then agreed with yourself.

Something like 99% of all fast DC charging is done to 80%

Are there reasons you may want to do it - sure, they are far from the majority use case.

Plug share finds a bunch between diadem/ ccs and tesla at 50KW and up.

I quoted you in bold where you did.

 

[UncleDave]

I quoted you in bold where you did.

You added " in human history" - I never said that.

I said "nobody" because it is indeed the exception vs the rule by a very large margin. Perhaps "rare" would have been a better term.

Are you arguing that its standard fare to for travelers to charge to 100%?

No EV is efficient traveling this way.

 

[E365]

You added " in human history" - I never said that.

I said "nobody" because it is indeed the exception vs the rule by a very large margin. Perhaps "rare" would have been a better term.

Are you arguing that its standard fare to for travelers to charge to 100%?

No EV is efficient traveling this way.

Nope. It’s been well-known for years that DC fast-charging to about 80% then hitting the road is the fastest way to travel long distances.

I’m questioning why wouldn’t someone prefer a car that can charge 0% to 100% in 1 hour vs 4+ hours?

Say you’re road tripping and decide to stop for charging and to get lunch, or shop at Walmart (EA in parking lot). You come back 45 minutes later…. I’d prefer my car is 95%+ vs a Toyota bZ4x at 70% (or whatever). Wouldn’t you?

 

[UncleDave]

Nope. It’s been well-known for years that DC fast-charging to about 80% then hitting the road is the fastest way to travel long distances.

I’m questioning why wouldn’t someone prefer a car that can charge 0% to 100% in 1 hour vs 4+ hours?

Say you’re road tripping and decide to stop for charging and to get lunch, or shop at Walmart (EA in parking lot). You come back 45 minutes later…. I’d prefer my car is 95%+ vs a Toyota bZ4x at 70% (or whatever). Wouldn’t you?

They would prefer a car that charges faster to one that charges slower- right up to the point you compromise battery life and capacity.

I (and most) care much more how fast it goes from 0-80% than 80-100%.

This car is an an utter dog everywhere in the charge range.

 

[E365]

Per Toyota “DC charging may not work on AWD bz4x when the temperature is below 32 degrees Fahrenheit.”

Five Things to Know About the All-Electric Toyota bZ4X - Toyota USA Newsroom

Toyota’s introduction of the bZ4X represents the first of a global series of battery-electric vehicles (BEVs) to be introduced under the “Toyota bZ” (Beyond Zero) brand umbrella. This electrifying lineup boasts zero emissions and is part of the automaker’s diverse […]

pressroom.toyota.com

Heck of a machine, Toyota. (Hopefully this is just a poorly/incorrectly written sentence).

 

[PandaBear]

Guys, I don't see what is the big deal. If you want a more aggressive charging EV there are tons of choices out there. If you buy this for fast road tripping you are probably buying a wrong car.

I like that it is slow charging and gives you a battery design life of 620k miles. If I were to buy one for commuting this would be it, then I'd use a hybrid for long trip. If you want something for only 10-15 years with faster charging then get anything else but this.

 

[E365]

Guys, I don't see what is the big deal. If you want a more aggressive charging EV there are tons of choices out there. If you buy this for fast road tripping you are probably buying a wrong car.

I like that it is slow charging and gives you a battery design life of 620k miles. If I were to buy one for commuting this would be it, then I'd use a hybrid for long trip. If you want something for only 10-15 years with faster charging then get anything else but this.

I could see that if the Toyota battery warranty (8 yr / 100,000 miles) was exceptional, but it’s actually worse than

Hyundai/Kia (10 years / 100,000 miles),
Rivian (8 years / 175,000 miles) and
Tesla (8 years / 150,000 miles)

and the same as GM, Porsche, BMW, etc.

If Toyota had something like a 250,000 mile battery warranty, that would be another story.

 

[E365]

Bjorn Nyland just did the “1,000km Challenge” with it. One of the slowest cars he’s ever tested.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Bjorn Nyland just did the “1,000km Challenge” with it. One of the slowest cars he’s ever tested.

Yeah, this is the basis for the Lexus RZ 450e, which is hardly getting rave reviews. And I believe the range is a platry 200 miles?
Still waiting for the big boys, and I love my Toyotas.

 

[UncleDave]

Bjorn Nyland just did the “1,000km Challenge” with it. One of the slowest cars he’s ever tested.

Yup - slower than even a Leaf.

" Wait till the big boys get in"