Toyota- Build Quality

[toyo]

Here are my thoughts. I worked for Toyota for many years. I have also worked for Gm. I have seen it from both sides.
Lets take a window motor for example. Toyota will give thier supplier a certain build thier looking for. They will specify a certain fail per 1000 parts. This is where you get the long term reliability. The difference between Toyota and Lexus is even bigger. If they specify 5 failures per 1000 on a toyota it might be 1 or 2 per 1000.

 

[Jimbo]

We have had several Toyotas (all purchaced new) in the family, along with several Fords and other makes over the last twenty+ years. No, they are not perfect. One big difference, however, it that they take care of you after the warranty has expired. There have been two problems on two different trucks, bad paint and a head gasket, that were fixed at no charge well past the warranty. Other makes supposedly do this too, but I have never seen Ford take responsibility for anything.

I will give credit where is is due. My 1994 Chevrolet truck was delivered with no build defects and needed almost nothing for 100,000 miles.

 

[brianl703]

I got all of the underhood wiring harnesses on my '96 Contour replaced by Ford at 97,000 miles under an extended warranty program that they had issued for the wiring harnesses (10 years/100,000 miles).

The insulation on the wires became brittle and was starting to crack, exposing bare wire.

The catch is that I had to take it to a different dealer to get the work done because the local Ford dealership outright refused to do it. Then I called the local Mercury dealership and asked their opinion, and they said that they would have to agree with the local Ford dealership that it's not covered.

So I took it to another dealership about 20 miles away, got it done with only minor problems (they didn't plug in one of the harnesses all the way so I mistakenly replaced the throttle position sensor when the computer gave a code for it. Then I found the loose connector and plugged it in tight. Since I wasn't dealing with a Toyota or a Honda

the throttle position sensor only set me back $20 at Autozone, so I wasn't too miffed about it).

How much did this cost Ford?

8 hours of tech time @ $65/hour
At least $650 in parts (Ford not only supplies warranty parts to the dealership for free, they give the dealership the difference between the part's wholesale and retail cost!)

I'm not going to complain, other than to wonder what kind of idiot specs what must have been 140F temperature-rated PCV insulation for underhood wiring harnesses.

 

[1sttruck]

brianl703 said "I'm not going to complain, other than to wonder what kind of idiot [at Ford] specs what must have been 140F temperature-rated PCV insulation for underhood wiring harnesses."

The same guys that spec'd a low temp thermoplastic part for the headlight switch in our 93 Taurus, which caused the headlights to blink off and on while driving down the road, as the switch literally started melting with high current loads. Although I found out later it was recall item I had already replaced it myself as the instructions in the factory manual were to remove the dash to replace it, something that's usually good for a $1000 repair bill.

Still, in the previous post on gas vs diesel comparisons the Ford gas engine trucks did very well. A problem with a gas engine is that if worked hard it can be difficult to consitently get 100k miles out of one.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by 1sttruck:
The same guys that spec'd a low temp thermoplastic part for the headlight switch in our 93 Taurus, which caused the headlights to blink off and on while driving down the road, as the switch literally started melting with high current loads.

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I think that's more a case of the switch contacts and/or the wire gauge not being suitable for the current being drawn. Yes, they could have used a more heat-resistant plastic, but that would have just been a band-aid for the problem, with a beefier switch/wiring or a relay being the real solution.

I suspect that if you had closely examined the wires leaving the connector, you would have noticed that the insulation was getting hard and brittle--exactly like the underhood wires in my Contour prior to replacement. That's a sure sign that the wiring and/or the switch it's connected to is carrying too much current.

My '88 Mustang 5.0 had an overheated ignition switch and connector--the switch (only) had been replaced under recall once before. The original connector was so melted that I had to break some of the terminals out of it (so I could use them in the new connecor). Some of the wire insulation was cracking off too.

The recall-replacement switch was also obviously heat damaged. Probably the original switch fried the connector and the fried connector fried the recall-replacement switch.

The new connector has 10 gauge wire pigtails where the factory connector only had 12 gauge wire. I spliced the 12 gauge to the 10 gauge wire--perhaps the idea is that the extra length of 10 gauge will dissipate more heat than 12 gauge?

I also noticed that the heater fan switch connector is showing signs of overheating. That one will be a little bit easier than the ignition switch!

 

[1sttruck]

buster said "You guys make some great points. I really think most cars are so close anymore with the exception of a few from the German makers that seem to have some reliability issues. Chrysler too also ranks pretty low and that kind of concerns me with buying the Ram."

Look at the link below, which is a comparison of gas vs diesel vehicles by JD Powers. The Dodge diesel comes out on top, which is even better results than I expected. I have a 2003 Dodge diesel, and from what I observed people bought Ford or GM diesel trucks for 'everything else' and tended to put up with powertrain issues, while people bought the Dodge for the powertrain and tended to put up with 'everything else'. Like the teething problems on the GM Duramax and even the well liked Allison transmission (as they upgrade the power on the engine they have to limit HP in certain gears), the decent reliability of the previous Ford diesel and really bad problems with their new one, and lots of failures with the Ford automatic transmissions. Dodge had a weak automatic on their early diesels but something like over 60% of Dodge diesel owners prefer a stick anyway, and in spite of a few weak points on the earlier engines the Cummins was known for good mileage and long life. With the quieter 2003 the Dodge seems to have really made headway as I see a lot more out in the country around here and on the raod in the west coast pulling things.

After I bought mine I helped a friend locate one, a coworker bought one to replace his Durango for pullling a trailer, and now that he bought a bigger trailer and sold his old trailer to a family member, guess what kind of truck they bought :^)

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-07-26-engines.htm#diesel

 

[seotaji]

quote:

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My 99 camry is a piece of crap. It is the second most unrelible vehicle, that I have owned. It has been in the shop 6 times in the last 2 months (for the same problem). It has cost me thousands in repairs. It squeaks and rattles like crazy, whenever you hit any kind of road imperfection. The driver side window motor, makes an awful racket (but still functions fine). The passenger side mirror vibrates so bad that you can't see out of it. The carpet came loose in the rear floorboard. The wood trim on the dash, disintegrated.

If my camry, is the best toyota has to offer, then they are a sorry company.

On the up side..........I had a 2004 camry rental car, while my car was in the shop. There are things that I don't like about it, but overall.......I was quite impressed. It feels much more solid than my 99. It handles better, rides better, and the engine/transmission combo is very impressive for a 4 banger.

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My story is similar to that.

My 00' Acura TL has been a horrible car, while it hasn't cost me a dime in repairs (since all were covered under warranty), it still wasted my time (which is also costly). I thought by buying an Acura, it would be a better honda (like lexus), well I was wrong and it was an expensive lesson.

Most of the interior has been replaced, sans seats, the dash has a horrible gap between the vent and dash edge, interior rattles out the wazoo, cv joint defects, paint issues, trim issues, seats pop, etc... The tranny shifts roughly lately, so I hope that it finally dies for warranty replacement.

The only things that have been reliable are the engine and electronics.

I drove a '02-3 loaner and was blown away at the difference between it and my car.

I will never purchase another honda product.

 

[tpi]

My '04 Camry is a good car but I wouldn't call it superior in build quality. Two below average areas:

Paint isn't tough, bird droppings, bugs stain paint quickly and area needs to be rubbed out. Rocks more likely to chip paint. My 99 Ford pickup has superior paint durability.

Minor plastic buzzes, creaking from weatherstripping some of the time. Most of the time it is pretty quiet and no heavy rattles or squeaks.

On the good side:

1. Machining of mechanical parts seems excellent. No oil seepage.

2. Drivability and fuel economy up to 11,000 ft. no hiccups.

3. Great AC interior controls, stereo, smooth ride.

4. Value for the money, good car for $17,000.

 

[Ugly3]

Toyota and many other companies in Japan were the very early to introduce SPC to their manufacturing process and dedicate their management team to "continous improvement" of the manufacturing process.

The significant quality advantage was clearly apparent in the 60's and 70's. Since that time the domestic makers have improved to the point where today the numbers suggest there remains very little difference.

However, the "perceived" quality advantage of imports remains in the marketplace.

Lee Iococca reported that two cars were produced on the same production line, one was a domestic name plate, the other was an import name plate. The import sold much better than the domestic. The import was reported by owners as having better quality than the domestic. They were the same car off the same line.

Hard to change perception.

 

[Amkeer]

TPI,

Clearcoats need to be protected with some kind of polymer fairly regularly, even then birds and bugs will eat coatings because of the acidic nature of these elements. A way to avoid this is remove the contaminents as quick as possible.

Its just clearcoats in general and all manufacturers use similiar finish materials especially those manufactured here in the U.S..

Daily Drives:
-2003 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner XtraCab, 2.7 Liter , Mobil1 Synthetic SS 5W-30.
ODO 10150Miles.
-1995 Toyota 4-Runner 3.0 V6, Mobil1 Synthetic SS 10W-30.
ODO 91900 Miles.
http://community.webshots.com/user/amkeer

 

[buster]

Ugly3, I agree to some point that the difference is small, however, if you have driven in a Toyota, Ford and GM product, you can clearly feel, see and touch the differences in material quality. My car is much more solid on the inside then my wife's Focus. Much more plastic and it rattles/squeaks already @ 25k miles. My car has ZERO sqeaks/rattles @ 168k miles. Hard to ignore that.

 

[Amkeer]

Ugly,

Its not a placebo effect. I have had more GM's than I have had Toyotas. There is a clear difference across the board.

 

[tpi]

quote:

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Originally posted by Amkeer:
[QB] TPI,

Clearcoats need to be protected with some kind of polymer fairly regularly, even then birds and bugs will eat coatings because of the acidic nature of these elements. A way to avoid this is remove the contaminents as quick as possible.

Its just clearcoats in general and all manufacturers use similiar finish materials especially those manufactured here in the U.S..

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I think you are right regarding removal of contaminants ASAP. Nevertheless I do own both vehicles, both vehicles are subject to identical care, and the Ford clearly has stronger, more durable paint. OTOH I'd take the Toyota's electrical system anyday

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by buster:
My car has ZERO sqeaks/rattles @ 168k miles. Hard to ignore that.

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My 1988 Ford Mustang has ZERO squeaks/rattles @ 158k miles.

And we all know that 1988 was in the dark ages of domestic vehicle quality!

I traced a rattle on my 1996 Ford Contour to the rear brakelight, apparently a moron attempted to change one of the bulbs (based on the pry marks I saw on the housing) and somehow messed it up so that it was too close to the rear glass.

I just got some vacuum tubing, cut it to 1" pieces, and put them between the 3rd brakelight and the glass.

Gosh, I feel ingenious

 

[seotaji]

quote:

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however, if you have driven in a Toyota, Ford and GM product, you can clearly feel, see and touch the differences in material quality.

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i agree. compare the dash material of each maker.

lets take a caddy (most models) and compare it to an accord.

the cadillac uses HARD plastic on the dash compared to the soft spongy rubber/plastic used on the accord.

 

[brianl703]

Why is hard plastic any better or worse than spongy soft rubber/plastic?

Both seem to age pretty well. Both seem to do their job.

I wear my seatbelt, so slamming into it during an accident isn't a consideration.

So what's the difference?

 

[buster]

My dad leased many cars over the years bc he was in sales. I can tell you that all the GM cars from 1989 to 1998 with the exception of the Buick Lesabre, were JUNK. Cheap plastic materials and water pumps would go around 25k miles. Lousy made cars. GM admitted that they have to do better. Ford and DC as well. They are starting to do a better job but whenever you read a car and driver review they always mention Toyota fit and finish as being the best. Consumer Reports and J.D. powers both show Toyota as the industry leader. I'll agree that the domestics have caught up but they still lag behind Toyota. The other Japanese cars are on pare or average.

 

[Amkeer]

I really do wish that Ford, Chrysler and GM would get their heads out of the clouds and start making a quality product instead of the old "it should be fine", attitude. We are all effected by marginal quality as a mainstream attitude! It makes me sick...

 

[friendly_jacek]

quote:

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Originally posted by buster:
What makes Toyota, Toyota? How do they build such high quality vehicles?

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Well, the truth is that new, made in america, toyota is not "toyota" anymore.
Especially its newer economy cars suffer from poorer materials and cutting corners.
I have a 2003 corolla and can attest to many problems:
squicky noises when new (most went away or I localized myself), unbarable sulfur smell on high sulfur gas (TSB with fix released only recently after EPA intervention), sun visor colliding with rearwiew mirror, inside fabric wearing rapidly, hinges of dashboard plastic door braking, etc. These are not isolated things, but rather common in all new corollas and even all toyotas. These are small things yet bother owners a lot.
Sadly, huynday has suposedly one of the best quality interiors these days.

 

[obbop]

Just my opinion.... add 75-cents and you can buy a cup of coffee with it!!!!!!!

Corporate America cares more about those HUGE bonuses to the higher-ups than they do anything else.

Personal greed has led to lower quality, jobs being sent out of the country, union busting, politicians ignoring the invasion of millions of illegal aliens who specifically harm America's working poor while easing those who hire employess, etc. etc. etc.

Tis a complicated topic beyond the scope of a message board post.

Having done in-depth research about the influx of illegal aliens the last 9 years I learned quite a bit about what to me is the unholy alliance between BIG business and BIG government. There is, to me, something seriously wrong in our once-sovereign country and things in general are gonna' get really rough in the not-too-distant future; perhaps leading to insurrection based upon class distinctions.