Toyota 0w20
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If I could get Amsoil for $5 CDN like I can the Toyota oil, I'd consider it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that Amsoil is an extended drain oil, so it should have a high TBN. The Toyota is not an extended drain oil.
3Toyotas, the TBN level of an oil has nothing to do with the base oil chemistry. Furthermore a high TBN is not necessarily better than a more modest level. Since you mentioned Asmoil, their expensive performance oriented RD20 5W-20 has a TBN of 6.41.
While Amsoil ASM 0W-20 may have a similar 100C vis to the Toyota product it's rather modest 167 VI is clearly not in the same league with Toyota.
While Amsoil ASM 0W-20 may have a similar 100C vis to the Toyota product it's rather modest 167 VI is clearly not in the same league with Toyota.
I'm obsessive compulsive myself, so I would have the oil tested again at 100°C. Although 9.7 is possible, the 8.7 is more plausible. As Caterham says, you could ask for a retest. If they don't agree to do it, you can always go elsewhere.
Yes, modern oil formulas don't necessarily start with a high TBN, but they drop slower because they are balanced better. The starting number matters less than how fast it drops. Here are the best links I could find on TBN, but it was a quick search:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/tbn.41220/
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/tbn.41220/
Yes, modern oil formulas don't necessarily start with a high TBN, but they drop slower because they are balanced better. The starting number matters less than how fast it drops. Here are the best links I could find on TBN, but it was a quick search:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/tbn.41220/
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/tbn.41220/
I know others have had good results with Wearcheck, but this is the second time I've had a questionable result and was duly ignored. Look for a UOA post called 'a tale of two labs' where I had a TBN on PP run for 8000 km of 7.8 from Wearcheck and 3.2 from Blackstone. No one answered my emails that time either.
So, I'm off to Toromont to buy a kit from them. Not only is it cheaper, but they do TBN, TAN and particle count for no additional charge. Guess I'll be doing my UOA's there as well. There are a few things Toromont doesn't test for like Boron and vis@40c, but I can live with that.
So, I'm off to Toromont to buy a kit from them. Not only is it cheaper, but they do TBN, TAN and particle count for no additional charge. Guess I'll be doing my UOA's there as well. There are a few things Toromont doesn't test for like Boron and vis@40c, but I can live with that.
Well, it looks like Wearcheck went ahead and retested the Visc@40c and the Visc@100c after I questioned their results compared to Toyota's stated numbers.
The new numbers are:
Visc@40c - 38.2
Visc@100c - 9.3
I also sent a sample from the same bottle to Toromont and will post their VOA when I get it.
Cheers.
The new numbers are:
Visc@40c - 38.2
Visc@100c - 9.3
I also sent a sample from the same bottle to Toromont and will post their VOA when I get it.
Cheers.
Originally Posted By: rcy
I also sent a sample from the same bottle to Toromont and will post their VOA when I get it.
Thanks for this rcy.
I also sent a sample from the same bottle to Toromont and will post their VOA when I get it.
Thanks for this rcy.
Wow, the 9.3 viscosity isn't as high as the original 9.7, but it's still a 30 weight oil at operating temperature (although barely so). I'm curious if the other test will confirm it.
Hopefully, I'll have Toromont's results by the end of the week.
All depends on Canada Post - hope they haven't lost the package.
All depends on Canada Post - hope they haven't lost the package.
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
Wow, the 9.3 viscosity isn't as high as the original 9.7, but it's still a 30 weight oil at operating temperature
And given its very impressive virgin #s don't you think that this oil could/should be considered for use in cars whose spec grade is the ubiquitous 5W30?
Wow, the 9.3 viscosity isn't as high as the original 9.7, but it's still a 30 weight oil at operating temperature
And given its very impressive virgin #s don't you think that this oil could/should be considered for use in cars whose spec grade is the ubiquitous 5W30?
Guys,I don't know if you realize this but the retest figures just confirm the super high VI. It's even higher in the retest at 240!
I've changed out the 20wt Red Line in favor of the 0W-20 Toyota (Idemitsu we now know makes it) in my Caterham and I'm very impressed. The oil pressure is considerable lower on start-up (reflective of the lower vis') but by the time the oil temp's get up to 80C the oil pressure is slightly higher than before reflecting it's higher high temp vis.
This the best syn oil discovery (and price deal) in Canada since GC was discovered (also in Canada) by Patman.
I've changed out the 20wt Red Line in favor of the 0W-20 Toyota (Idemitsu we now know makes it) in my Caterham and I'm very impressed. The oil pressure is considerable lower on start-up (reflective of the lower vis') but by the time the oil temp's get up to 80C the oil pressure is slightly higher than before reflecting it's higher high temp vis.
This the best syn oil discovery (and price deal) in Canada since GC was discovered (also in Canada) by Patman.
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
Wow, the 9.3 viscosity isn't as high as the original 9.7, but it's still a 30 weight oil at operating temperature
And given its very impressive virgin #s don't you think that this oil could/should be considered for use in cars whose spec grade is the ubiquitous 5W30?
Absolutely!
In fact you could do a blend of 4 litres of the Toyota oil and 1 litre of M1 0W-40 and wind up with a 0W-30 that would be heavier Castrol Edge 5W-30 at 100C but still lighter than most other 20wts at start-up due to the VI that would still be over 200.
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
Wow, the 9.3 viscosity isn't as high as the original 9.7, but it's still a 30 weight oil at operating temperature
And given its very impressive virgin #s don't you think that this oil could/should be considered for use in cars whose spec grade is the ubiquitous 5W30?
Absolutely!
In fact you could do a blend of 4 litres of the Toyota oil and 1 litre of M1 0W-40 and wind up with a 0W-30 that would be heavier Castrol Edge 5W-30 at 100C but still lighter than most other 20wts at start-up due to the VI that would still be over 200.
Yes, this 0W20 oil does create some options: a thin oil for 5W30 vehicles, best of both worlds for 0W20 vehicles, etc. I like that Toyota had the nerve to offer something with unusual specs. I can't wait to see how it performs in UOAs. There was one UOA for a new Prius, but it was indeterminate.
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
Yes, this 0W20 oil does create some options: a thin oil for 5W30 vehicles,
And to make it a bit more amenable for a 5W30 engine adding some M1 0W40 (as Caterham had suggested above) or even some GC might result in a superoil?
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
I can't wait to see how it performs in UOAs.
+1 +1
Yes, this 0W20 oil does create some options: a thin oil for 5W30 vehicles,
And to make it a bit more amenable for a 5W30 engine adding some M1 0W40 (as Caterham had suggested above) or even some GC might result in a superoil?
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
I can't wait to see how it performs in UOAs.
+1 +1
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
Yes, this 0W20 oil does create some options: a thin oil for 5W30 vehicles, best of both worlds for 0W20 vehicles, etc. I like that Toyota had the nerve to offer something with unusual specs. I can't wait to see how it performs in UOAs. There was one UOA for a new Prius, but it was indeterminate.
I think it's more a case of "necessity is the mother of invention".
Engines in hybrid cars have some unique lubrication challenges.
The engine is a source of supplemental power only. It only runs when required and then it is shut down. Consiquently it can spend a lot of it's time running under load with the oil well below normal operating temperature.
That being the case, you would want the lightest oil possible for instant lubrication when the engine is frequently started and still robust enough for the times the engine does get up to operating temperature.
If this oil holds up in UOA, (and I can't imagine Toyota and Honda with all their engineering prowess developing something new that wasn't the real deal), then we've got something truly special here. And all the other major players like XOM, Shell etc. with have to go back to the drawing board to improve their now second rate oils.
Yes, this 0W20 oil does create some options: a thin oil for 5W30 vehicles, best of both worlds for 0W20 vehicles, etc. I like that Toyota had the nerve to offer something with unusual specs. I can't wait to see how it performs in UOAs. There was one UOA for a new Prius, but it was indeterminate.
I think it's more a case of "necessity is the mother of invention".
Engines in hybrid cars have some unique lubrication challenges.
The engine is a source of supplemental power only. It only runs when required and then it is shut down. Consiquently it can spend a lot of it's time running under load with the oil well below normal operating temperature.
That being the case, you would want the lightest oil possible for instant lubrication when the engine is frequently started and still robust enough for the times the engine does get up to operating temperature.
If this oil holds up in UOA, (and I can't imagine Toyota and Honda with all their engineering prowess developing something new that wasn't the real deal), then we've got something truly special here. And all the other major players like XOM, Shell etc. with have to go back to the drawing board to improve their now second rate oils.
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
Yes, this 0W20 oil does create some options: a thin oil for 5W30 vehicles, best of both worlds for 0W20 vehicles, etc. I like that Toyota had the nerve to offer something with unusual specs. I can't wait to see how it performs in UOAs. There was one UOA for a new Prius, but it was indeterminate.
Have patience my young Padawan. I just changed the oil in my Lexus RX400h (hybrid) to the Toyota 0w20.
Unfortunately, you'll have to wait till spring for the UOA and being a run over the winter, I don't know if fuel dilution, water, etc. will affect the analysis. Also, this oil is being used for a rinse phase of Auto-Rx.
Have no fear though, if you can wait till next fall, I'll have a UOA of the Toyota 0w20 over a summer run. Also, it will be the second interval using the Toyota oil, so the numbers might be more indicative of what the oil can do.
Yes, this 0W20 oil does create some options: a thin oil for 5W30 vehicles, best of both worlds for 0W20 vehicles, etc. I like that Toyota had the nerve to offer something with unusual specs. I can't wait to see how it performs in UOAs. There was one UOA for a new Prius, but it was indeterminate.
Have patience my young Padawan. I just changed the oil in my Lexus RX400h (hybrid) to the Toyota 0w20.
Unfortunately, you'll have to wait till spring for the UOA and being a run over the winter, I don't know if fuel dilution, water, etc. will affect the analysis. Also, this oil is being used for a rinse phase of Auto-Rx.
Have no fear though, if you can wait till next fall, I'll have a UOA of the Toyota 0w20 over a summer run. Also, it will be the second interval using the Toyota oil, so the numbers might be more indicative of what the oil can do.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I think it's more a case of "necessity is the mother of invention".
Engines in hybrid cars have some unique lubrication challenges.
The engine is a source of supplemental power only. It only runs when required and then it is shut down. Consiquently it can spend a lot of it's time running under load with the oil well below normal operating temperature.
That being the case, you would want the lightest oil possible for instant lubrication when the engine is frequently started and still robust enough for the times the engine does get up to operating temperature.
If this oil holds up in UOA, (and I can't imagine Toyota and Honda with all their engineering prowess developing something new that wasn't the real deal), then we've got something truly special here. And all the other major players like XOM, Shell etc. with have to go back to the drawing board to improve their now second rate oils.
Excellent point about this oil being a necessary invention. The hybrid angle is where I'm coming from. I bought a Civic Hybrid this summer, since the Prius dealers were gouging at $4,000 over sticker (bite me!). The engine does indeed run cool. Even driving it very hard on the highway last summer, my coolant never crossed 201°F on a 100°F day. I know the oil temperature can run considerably higher than coolant, but I doubt it in this case.
On Terry Dyson's recommendation, I switched to RLI 0W-20, but I won't be doing any UOAs on this oil soon. I want to give it a few intervals to clean out the internals first. In about a year and a half, I'll post one worst case UOA (winter) and best case (summer). Ha, I realize an Oklahoma winter isn't remotely comparable to a Canadian one, but the purpose will still be served of testing a cool-running engine in colder weather.
Edit: I didn't see rcy's comments until after I posted. Yes, I especially look forward to seeing your summer results. It will be hard to read too much into a winter run combined with an Auto-Rx cleaning, another product I believe in.
I think it's more a case of "necessity is the mother of invention".
Engines in hybrid cars have some unique lubrication challenges.
The engine is a source of supplemental power only. It only runs when required and then it is shut down. Consiquently it can spend a lot of it's time running under load with the oil well below normal operating temperature.
That being the case, you would want the lightest oil possible for instant lubrication when the engine is frequently started and still robust enough for the times the engine does get up to operating temperature.
If this oil holds up in UOA, (and I can't imagine Toyota and Honda with all their engineering prowess developing something new that wasn't the real deal), then we've got something truly special here. And all the other major players like XOM, Shell etc. with have to go back to the drawing board to improve their now second rate oils.
Excellent point about this oil being a necessary invention. The hybrid angle is where I'm coming from. I bought a Civic Hybrid this summer, since the Prius dealers were gouging at $4,000 over sticker (bite me!). The engine does indeed run cool. Even driving it very hard on the highway last summer, my coolant never crossed 201°F on a 100°F day. I know the oil temperature can run considerably higher than coolant, but I doubt it in this case.
On Terry Dyson's recommendation, I switched to RLI 0W-20, but I won't be doing any UOAs on this oil soon. I want to give it a few intervals to clean out the internals first. In about a year and a half, I'll post one worst case UOA (winter) and best case (summer). Ha, I realize an Oklahoma winter isn't remotely comparable to a Canadian one, but the purpose will still be served of testing a cool-running engine in colder weather.
Edit: I didn't see rcy's comments until after I posted. Yes, I especially look forward to seeing your summer results. It will be hard to read too much into a winter run combined with an Auto-Rx cleaning, another product I believe in.
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OK...Here are the results from Toromont. The Visc@100c is more in line with what Toyota claims, I think. I have no idea what particle counts are, but they offered it for free. Anyone comment on them? I also asked for TBN and TAN (also free) but I don't see them. I called Toromont (they are really really nice BTW) and they already realized the data was missing and have the rest of my sample set aside to do the TBN and TAN tomorrow. They will email me the results.
Not very big for some reason. Here's the direct link
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3765/toromontbigvoa.jpg
Click on the picture itself and it gets even bigger.
Not very big for some reason. Here's the direct link
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3765/toromontbigvoa.jpg
Click on the picture itself and it gets even bigger.
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Eneos??
Feel free to correct me, but the US version is possibly Eneos, but Caterham thought the Canadian version was Esso? Ha, major car companies don't like it when we try to peek under the label.
Sigh, the 8.85 viscosity isn't quite as high as everyone had hoped, but it's still a bit higher than the average 0W-20.
Sigh, the 8.85 viscosity isn't quite as high as everyone had hoped, but it's still a bit higher than the average 0W-20.
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