Torquing Drain Plugs w/Crush Washer

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It depends on the Honda. The Fit (and the CR-V with which I'm most familiar) both use an aluminum pan. I don't really know much about the stamped steel pan. Since the OP was talking about a Honda Fit though, let's talk Honda's equipped w/an aluminum pan. Note: I don't know the specs for the Fit, so these assumptions are for a CR-V:

-the bolt is mid-grade steel bolt, 14mmx1.5tpi, threaded into a cast aluminum pan (don't know the grade, so I'll assume a mid-grade T6).

-the pan threads on the CR-V are roughly 6-7mm deep based on my observation. I decided to err on the conservative side and assume 5.8mm thread depth

-the aluminum crush washer is .8mm x 18mm O.D>

So, the question is "how precise do I need to be for this joint not to fail".

There are two ways a drain plug fails: it fall out (or leaks), or it goes past the yield limits of the fasteners or threads (in this case, the pan threads will yield first since they're softer). To the first point, it's almost impossible to put it in "too loose" WRT catastrophic failure. Pretty much the only way it's going to fall out is if you forget to tighten it. There forces on a drain plug are exceedingly low. OTOH, you could potentially have a leak--but that's the purpose of the sealing washer. As long as the washer is tightened to it's yield point, you won't have an issue unless there's significant damage to the threads.

OTOH, tightening the joint past the yield point of the threads is a potential issue. That's when you're going to strip the threads and run into trouble.

Rather than express this in MPa (which won't be relevant to most folks), let's pretend that all conditions are perfect and that your friction-torque wrench is 100% accurate in it's representation of joint tension. The joint shouldn't begin to yield until you reach roughly 77 N-m, or 57 ft lb. The minimum torque required involves a more seat-of-the-pants calculation, since I don't have measurements of tension between the bolt and the pan...but since they move as a system, I can guarantee it's very low. That's why drain plugs aren't falling out left and right. I'd guess it's in the 8-10 N-m range (6-8 ft lb).

Bottom line: there's a huge margin of safety build into the joint. Honda could increase this margin of safety by making the threads deeper (10mm threads would increase acceptable torque to 140 N-m!), but obviously they feel this is "good enough". The problem of course is that neither torque wrenches or operator feel are perfect, and if you look at the scatter plot on fastened joints, it's certainly possible to strip threads. That's why it happens; but since end users *typically* err on the low side, and the torque specification for a drain plug is given on the high side (torque specs typically are, for a number of reasons), problems with hand-tightened drain plugs are rare. Yes, they can happen, but it's out of the norm. If you use an appropriate sized wrench for the job, you aren't purposely trying to over-tighten the joint and you don't just plain forget to tighten the bolt, you don't need to take any special precautions to tighten a Honda drain plug in an aluminum pan.
 
Interesting reading JOD, thanks. A while back after reading this forum, I tried using a torque wrench to tighten a drain bolt. All the time I'm thinking, how do I know this TW is calibrated accurately/properly? I just wasn't very comfortable taking it to the torque spec 'click', seemed too tight to me. Anyway, I should have said in my years of diy oil change with no torque wrench, I haven't stripped a drain bolt or the pan threads.
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Thank you! I would like know how you came up with those two limits i.e. from 8 to 57 ft-lb.


At first I calculated them by hand using the formula in Bickford's text--but I was getting a high yield point of 770N-m...so I got frustrated and dumped them into a software program I used from these guys: LINK Turns out I can't remember basic math, and an extra zero got carried along the way...

That was to calculate the high number. To calculate the low number, I basically assumed the minimum amount of tension to begin pre-loading the joint. Not to turn this into War and Peace, but as long as the shear forces are lower than the yield point, loosening of the joint is exceedingly small. Take a motor mount bolt--the mount moves but the bolt doesn't (or shouldn't!). There are constant shear forces on the bolt. So,it has to be in high tension to overcome those forces. As long as it does, it won't loosen. When your engine is vibrating, the pan and bolt move together. Yes, there's *some* movement between the two, but as long as the bolt is under any pre-load at all, it's enough to overcome those forces. That's why a loose drain plug will fall out almost immediately. It if falls out months after assembly, it's because it surpassed the yield point, not because it was under it.

This is a good primer of the basic calculations.

There are a bunch of bolt calculators on line, which are useful to a degree. Most of them just express the results in friction torque rather than in MPa (you can always back-calculate it using those formulas though). The Bolt Science software given you all of the nitty-gritty.
 
I'm sure JOD's figures and figuring are correct for aluminum pans. But, the limits for a steel pan are the threads in the PAN, NOT the threads on the BOLT.

The weakness that Honda steel pans are famous for involves that piece of thin steel sheet which is punched to form the flange into which is cut the receiving threads for the drain-bolt. That flange is weak, and expands over time if the bolt is overtorqued. The bolt itself may suffer slightly-rounded thread-tips, but will otherwise be little harmed by the overtorquing and resultant stripping.

I did not know that the Fit has an aluminum pan. And if the CR-V has an aluminum pan, is this true for K-series CR-Vs only, or do some B-series CR-V's also have aluminum pans?
 
I used to hand tighten the drain plug by feel on our Odyssey, which has an Aluminum pan, but more often than not a slow oil leak would develop from the drain plug and I would have to tighten it further. After a few years of this I started torquing the plug to spec and haven't had a problem since.
 
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When your engine is vibrating, the pan and bolt move together. Yes, there's *some* movement between the two, but as long as the bolt is under any pre-load at all, it's enough to overcome those forces. That's why a loose drain plug will fall out almost immediately. It if falls out months after assembly, it's because it surpassed the yield point, not because it was under it.



In 1992 Honda speced 22nm for the drain pug on the CBR1000 SC24 German spec. This large 19mm thread drain was centerline under the bike and any leak would be right in line with the rear tire.

At constant high RPM driving 7500+ RPM these plugs came loose and Honda increased the torque to 29nm with a new aluminum washer to cure the issue which it did.
They also required a torque wrench be used to 10nm on the filter instead of hand tight because they were coming loose.

My own theory at the time is the aluminum washer new is more malleable therefore creating more friction under the bolt head without causing much additional thread loading when using the higher torque value.
Threads on these pans were known to be weak. In this case the drain plug was mission critical if that plug started leaking or came out at while underway its life and death for the rider.

I always used a torque wrench as specified by Honda and never had a leak or failure in 12 yrs and 225,000 Km.

I don't think your calculations are correct (it could be but i'm skeptical) 57lb (77nm) from what i've seen with these alu pans is really putting the threads at risk in fact at 77nm i would bet the threads would strip out and 8lb is low really low.
If you said 28-34nm it would seem a little closer.
I got those numbers from a car using a alu pan and a torque range spec.
 
I don't know whether the 01 Civic has an aluminum or steel pan, never gave it any thought. But with ~165k miles ~11 years, 5-6k ocis, no stripped pan threads, original drain bolt, no leaks with only an occasional new crush washer and no torque wrench ever.

Based on my experience, more inclined to go with JOD's less than critical wider torque range, than any tight range spec requirement. Bigger concern for me is using a 6 point socket to keep from rounding the drain bolt head.
 
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Based on my experience, more inclined to go with JOD's less than critical wider torque range, than any tight range spec requirement

Thats fine but would you literally bet your life on it, or would you use the manufacturers spec.
Aluminum threads (especially some of the low grade alloys used in automobile engines) don't deal well with high torque values, anyone thats been wrenching for any time at all knows that from experience.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav


In 1992 Honda speced 22nm for the drain pug on the CBR1000 SC24 German spec. This large 19mm thread drain was centerline under the bike and any leak would be right in line with the rear tire.

At constant high RPM driving 7500+ RPM these plugs came loose and Honda increased the torque to 29nm with a new aluminum washer to cure the issue which it did.
They also required a torque wrench be used to 10nm on the filter instead of hand tight because they were coming loose.

My own theory at the time is the aluminum washer new is more malleable therefore creating more friction under the bolt head without causing much additional thread loading when using the higher torque value.


Motorcycles are definitely going to see higher forces than a passenger car, even though they're still fairly low. I wouldn't use the low assumption on a motorcycle. You'd need some information on that actual forces on the bolt and pan, or do a simulated test (like a Junker test).


Originally Posted By: Trav
Threads on these pans were known to be weak. In this case the drain plug was mission critical if that plug started leaking or came out at while underway its life and death for the rider.

I always used a torque wrench as specified by Honda and never had a leak or failure in 12 yrs and 225,000 Km.


It certainly is critical in that application--that's one of the reasons they require safety wire to race on a track...and it's a concession to the inadequacies of using bolt torque as a proxy for bolt tension... BTW, my brother's 750 stripped out the threads while using a cleaned bolt, new crush washer and expensive torque wrench--and I know he's not the only one. So failures DO happen, regardless of the friction-based methods used (feel or torque control).

Originally Posted By: Trav
I don't think your calculations are correct (it could be but i'm skeptical) 57lb (77nm) from what i've seen with these alu pans is really putting the threads at risk in fact at 77nm i would bet the threads would strip out and 8lb is low really low.
If you said 28-34nm it would seem a little closer.
I got those numbers from a car using a alu pan and a torque range spec.


You're certainly free to do the calculations yourself, but they seem pretty reasonable to me (I actually think I erred on the low side, since I intentionally underestimated the thread depth just to be cautious). I've included all of the variables I've used (I left out nut-factor, I used a K of .2 based on a grade 5 bolt and aluminum washer). The reason they seem reasonable to me is that there is huge variance in bolt tension when using torque control--and if there weren't a margin of safety built into the joint, failures would be a common occurrence.

You can do everything right; all new fasteners, clean and chase the threads, use a new washer, use the torque wrench correctly--and you are STILL going to have a variance of at least 30% in bolt tension. Add in a used oil pan and drain plug with a light coating of dirty oil and you aren't going to be remotely close to this 30%--using a torque wrench. You seem to reference torque as though it's a direct measurement, and it's not. It's simply an approximation. If there weren't a large margin of safety built into the joint, these joints would fail far more often than they do.
 
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but they seem pretty reasonable to me (I actually think I erred on the low side, since I intentionally underestimated the thread depth just to be cautious). I've included all of the variables

Sorry there is no way i am going to try 57 ft lbs on a aluminum pan drain plug. If someone want to give it a go please post the results.
All the stress is on the aluminum threads which are very weak, i just cant see it.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
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but they seem pretty reasonable to me (I actually think I erred on the low side, since I intentionally underestimated the thread depth just to be cautious). I've included all of the variables

Sorry there is no way i am going to try 57 ft lbs on a aluminum pan drain plug. If someone want to give it a go please post the results.
All the stress is on the aluminum threads which are very weak, i just cant see it.


JOD did say that the joint shouldn't begin to yield (fail) until 57ft-lb of torque, so would you want to try that torque? That number seems reasonable to me, given that Honda specifies 30ft-lb for that bolt, which is well within the yield point.
 
I think those pan threads are going to fail long before 57 ft lbs, you may get away with it once but not twice. Ive seen so many stripped and pans cracked i could have made a fortune selling pans.
Go out and do it on a Honda aluminum (a junker preferably) pan and post back.
Don't mess around with aluminum pans and guesswork.
Google for stripped oil pan drain threads there are hundreds of hits of people that just guessed.

Aluminum is weak and the torque range is no where near that wide. Cadillac has engineers and books on torque also and they decided the N* didn't need thread inserts until the bloody engines were in bits littering their dealers lot with blown head gaskets because the threads in the aluminum pulled out during normal use.

The point is aluminum has a very low torque tolerance and a very narrow torque range using steel bolts compared to steel or iron.

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/mechanica...d-warranty.html

http://www.timesert.com/html/drainplug.html

http://www.coloradomazdaclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7917
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
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but they seem pretty reasonable to me (I actually think I erred on the low side, since I intentionally underestimated the thread depth just to be cautious). I've included all of the variables

Sorry there is no way i am going to try 57 ft lbs on a aluminum pan drain plug. If someone want to give it a go please post the results.
All the stress is on the aluminum threads which are very weak, i just cant see it.


I wouldn't suggest tightening a drain plug to 57 ft lbs. But guess what? If you've used a perfectly-calibrated torque wrench in real-life conditions (used fastener, old, reused threads), chances are very good that you've tightened a drain plug to the tension that torque is meant to approximate in perfect conditions.

I guess it would be more clear to talk about the joint in terms of megapascals (MPa). Friction is not what keeps a joint fastened--it's ONLY AN APPROXIMATION of that tension. And it's not very accurate or precise. Period. There's absolutely no debate on this subject in the fields of applied sciences. None. At all. Torque control works because there's enough margin of safety built into the joint that this lack of precision and accuracy is accounted for (for the most part--though even a perfectly-torqued joint can still fail if there's not a high-enough MoS).

For the given fastener variables we're talking about (CR-V drain plug and oil pan), the joint is tension ideally is around 200 MPa. The torque recommendation of 30 ft lbs is based on 200 MPa. If you grab your wrench, do everything perfectly and tighten the joint to 30 ft lbs and repeat this 10 times with THE EXACT SAME DRAIN PLUG , and a new (but different) crush washer, you'll actually be exerting anywhere from 140-260 MPa in tension to the joint. This is an absolutely best case scenario. The yield point is roughly 300 MPa.

So, it's not that 57 ft lbs is 'too tight', but that there's too much inaccuracy in the relationship between MPa and friction torque. The big variable in this is nut factor, or K, which is the friction coefficient of bolted elements (the male and female threads, the underhead of the bolt and the surface of the crush washer).

In thinking about it, I'm guessing that I underestimated this by shortening the threads a bit, since if the yield point where really 300 MPa, there would probably be more stripped plugs.

I found this calculator here which may give a little more clarity to the calculations. If you play around with the numbers you can see the difference a few threads makes (more or less)
 
Originally Posted By: Tegger
if the CR-V has an aluminum pan, is this true for K-series CR-Vs only, or do some B-series CR-V's also have aluminum pans?

Guy at my work has a 2003 CR-V: Steel pan.

Boss's 2010 CR-V: Aluminum pan.

I'll bet that about 95% of Hondas on the road have steel pans.
 
Just did an oil change today on the MIL's CR-V. I think it's circa 2006, two styles ago with the spare tire hanging off the back.

The pan is black colored, with what I'd call a short, stubby drain plug. It had a silver colored washer that had clearly been smushed good. There was a Honda branded oil filter so I think the latest change was at the dealer. I replaced it with a copper washer that fit nicely, tightened sans torque wrench with a 1/2" drive ratchet. Just did it by feel like I've done 50x on other cars (included several on our 2006 Accord with the same engine).

She's driving to Pittsburgh tomorrow, I'll report back if she calls and tells me the car started leaking oil
grin.gif


jeff
 
The one I did the calculations on was a gen 3, I may be off on the year. I know the first generation are all steel. Steel should be better all else equal, but from the sounds of it there aren't enough threads, or the steel is of poor quality-or both.
 
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The big variable in this is nut factor, or K, which is the friction coefficient of bolted elements (the male and female threads, the underhead of the bolt and the surface of the crush washer).


This was what i was saying when i mentioned Honda bumping up the torque and using a different more malleable washer.
It increase the friction between the bolt head not the actual torque on the threads.

The pans that seem to have huge issues are 18, 19 and 22mm diameter and use only have about 6-7 threads, its like tightening a egg shell.

This is the bottom line for me..
Most mechanics use a click, dial or beam type torque wrench and have a angle gauge for TTY bolts.

The manufacturer specs their torque based on industry accepted tools commonly used in this industry.

with the sheer amount of bolts that need to be torqued during an engine assembly there just isn't time or tooling attempting to be more accurate than manufacturers spec.

I have been doing this for 38 years, 12 of those years was on the heavy line rebuilding engines and transmissions. In those days i probably torqued more bolts in a day than many people in a year every one of them by hand.
I always used a calibrated tool and followed manufacturers specs for critical fasteners.
Never a stripped bolt or leak at a joint during install.
I base my position on that record and IMHO that's more than good enough.

I really cant think of anything else to say on this subject.

Have the last say and be done with it, now this back and forth is getting boring.
Trav out.
 
Changed the oil again on the Fit - 9755 miles later.

Drain plug and threads are in perfect condition, whew. The weird "slip" feeling described in the OP was likely due to the PI Torque wrench.

I put on a new crush washer, and torqued the plug to 29 ft-lbs with my Horror Freight 3/8" torque wrench - no weird "slip" feeling this time at all. All is well.

Side note, I'm using these generic 14mm aluminum drain plug washers I got on eBay. I wonder if these require a different amount of torque to crush compared to the Honda ones.
 
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