Tire Siping - Gimmick?

[onion]

I've never heard of this... but then I grew up in Tennessee where winter driving isn't a huge issue.

But this is interesting, and there's enough winter driving here in Kansas that some shops around here probably do this... I'll do some calling around.

Just bought the wife a 'new' '04 Accord- equipped with a nearly new set of the absolute sorriest tires I've ever driven on (Riken Raptor VR). Dry traction isn't very good, but not a huge issue. But wet traction with these tires is the worst I've ever seen on a tire with a reasonable amount of tread left. I've been considering replacing them with the Hankook Optimo H727 tires. But that's $450 or so that I'd REALLY rather not spend right now.

If I can find siping for a reasonable price- maybe $50- I might give it a try. I'd like to keep these sorry Riken Raptors and wear them out for a few years... IF I could get even reasonable wet traction out of them. I don't need anything special in the way of tires... just don't want to feel like I'm on a 'drifting' course whenever it rains.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: onion


If I can find siping for a reasonable price- maybe $50- I might give it a try. I'd like to keep these sorry Riken Raptors and wear them out for a few years... IF I could get even reasonable wet traction out of them. I don't need anything special in the way of tires... just don't want to feel like I'm on a 'drifting' course whenever it rains.


Unless standing water and aquaplane resistance is involved, wet traction is still a function of compound and not tread pattern or siping. I wouldn't count on siping to rescue a poor wet tire. It might be $450 spent to save your wife's life one day. If the supplied tires are nearly new, try to sell them on CL or something to offset the cost.

My Michelin PS2s have much better wet traction than my Hakkapeliitta RSis, even down to near-freezing. It's clear which one has more siping and "tread pattern" voids. Some Toyo T1Rs I had before the PS2s were even better in the wet - no sipes there either.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: Tortured_Soul
Tire Siping - Discount Tire
Never heard of this before either. But the DT linked article is interesting and based on that, I'd have to give it 'some' credence. DT doesn't push/sell nitrogen fills at all, but says there is something to siping. Might not do it, but based on DT's opin, unlike nitrogen fills, wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it either. Also, being that is DT's opinion, I believe they would stand behind the tires they siped.

As usual, good summary by Capri.

 

[BBDartCA]

Although my Multi-miles are throwing off chunks, these tires give excellent traction in snow and ice. 15% grade, from standstill in snow in 4x4, no chains, and this Dakota handles it no problem. I'm impressed, but do not have another tire to compare to on this rig.

 

[Ramblin Fever]

My sister swears by siping.

Last two sets of tires she's ran, have been siped....they've lasted probably longer then tires before that she didn't sipe. And the snow performance increased a lot for her.

I've only ever siped one set of truck tires, that was the yokohama AT II's, I actually had them siped to help with goopy mud moreso than anything else....it actually helped.

 

[CharBaby]

My dad owned a ESSO/EXXON gas station from '54-'79. While working there as a teenager I remember an older fella/customer of my dad's, telling us a story. Ohhh, IIRC, about 1970, how he would razor slice his tread "only" from side to side on his snow tires and then soak his snow tires in ammonia(in one of those tire troths used for finding hard to find tire leaks). He only poured in enough ammonia to cover the tread a little bit while slowly turning the tire until it was fully covered in the ammonia. He didn't actually fill the troth and I don't remember his saying if he used rubber gloves/safety glasses. He did this for better traction in the snow/ice. This gentleman said that he would take one of those metal bendable rulers, place it over the tread and with a razor knife, just score the tread with the knife until he went around the whole tire.

He claimed that the ammonia softened the rubber so that the tire was more plyable on the cold road and the razor slices were for better bite in the snow/ice. This must have taken some time as to let each tire sit in one spot for a few minutes and then slowly turn the tire til the tire(s) was fully covered. Not only that, back then this guy was using 4 snow tires as what is recomended today. And he was doing this on an old rear wheel drive FORD Galixy IIRC.

He must have had lot's of time on his hands as he hung around the station alot just visiting with us and drinking all the coffee. Dad would send him out once in a while to pick up parts and maybe clean the restrooms. This gentleman would just sit around drinking coffee and listen to the old AM radio that dad had in our so called office and reading the girly magazines. About 11:00-11:30 he would run out and get some lunch and sometimes even bring us back a "samich"

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: Char Baby
My dad owned a ESSO/EXXON gas station.......how he would razor slice his tread "only"........then soak his snow tires in ammonia.....He claimed that the ammonia softened the rubber......He must have had lot's of time on his hands.......


I'm calling [censored] on this. No, no! Not because I don't think that was the story the old guy was telling. But because I do not think the ammonia would have a significant effect - if any at all! But I'm not a chemist, so I can't state anything categorically.

I'll bet - like a great many things - this guy convinced himself that this was true, and gained status among the group for making such a claim. I'll also bet that the biggest gain in snow traction was from the cuts he made - and whatever he did chemically to the tread rubber at best had a very small effect - one that couldn't be discerned.

Traction testing of tires is highly problematic. It's hard to get consistent results even though many variables are controlled. To have someone make a claim the he can tell the difference in a temporary and highly variable condition such as snow without doing a back to back comparison - well, it strains credibility.

 

[Old Mustang Guy]

My Discount Tire tried to sell siping for a while then quit. I suspect they found problems. They tried to sell me on siping for my 2000 Mustang GT but I declined. I then read that siping is a no no on high performance tires because the rubber is a softer compound to begin with. The siping also makes the tread a little less stiff when cornering in the dry.

 

[IndyIan]

I've done some siping by hand on a half worn set of snow tires, most of the factory siping was only 1/3 of the overall tread depth so adding some sipes back helped abit. The next year I got a set of new snowtires and they were far better, but I think siping can help you get some more traction for the last year you run a set of snowtires.
Siping is just a small step towards "tractionizing" where a snowtire tread is almost shredded to gives thousands of edges for grip on ice and snow. Its used for ice racing and rally.
http://www.uniwerks.ca/sac/sactionizer.htm

 

[CharBaby]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: Char Baby
My dad owned a ESSO/EXXON gas station.......how he would razor slice his tread "only"........then soak his snow tires in ammonia.....He claimed that the ammonia softened the rubber......He must have had lot's of time on his hands.......


I'm calling [censored] on this. No, no! Not because I don't think that was the story the old guy was telling. But because I do not think the ammonia would have a significant effect - if any at all! But I'm not a chemist, so I can't state anything categorically.


I'll bet - like a great many things - this guy convinced himself that this was true, and gained status among the group for making such a claim. I'll also bet that the biggest gain in snow traction was from the cuts he made - and whatever he did chemically to the tread rubber at best had a very small effect - one that couldn't be discerned.

Traction testing of tires is highly problematic. It's hard to get consistent results even though many variables are controlled. To have someone make a claim the he can tell the difference in a temporary and highly variable condition such as snow without doing a back to back comparison - well, it st(older being the key word)rains credibility.


Yeah, you can call it what ever you want about the ammonia, as it was just a story from my past. But, I'll tell ya what!
This is another story entirely about windshield wipers...Here goes!
I was driving home at night from a family get together and had a 45 min drive ahead of me. No, I wasn't drinking as I had my family with me. My car was already cleaned and the windshield was as spotless as I can normaly get it but, the wiper blades were getting old and not wiping very well. So, needless to say I had a difficult time seeing the road all of the way home. I was telling my father-in-law about the situation and he suggested cleaning the wipers with ammonia and fine emmery cloth to smooth out the rough edges. I used the emmery on the blades and it helped quite a bit with the streaking. But the blades still chattered/viberated over the glass. Now, comes in the ammonia. I cleaned the rubber wiper blades with ammonia on a clean cloth and let dry by them selves. Keep in mind that it's just above freezing outside. The rubber became more plyable against the windshield and lasted for several months doing this. Prior to the ammonia,I was ready to disguard the wiper blades for new ones. The blades were almost 3 years old at this time and I ran them for another 2 years using the ammonia until they started to tare on the ends as many wipers do over time.

Don't disguard the idea of ammonia. I won't use it on tires as it would take too much fluid, time and I dont think it's needed today as it may have been needed in the '60s but, I sware by it on older wiper blades to keep them plyable in the colder temps. Maybe just when you think that the wipers are becoming too noisy over the glass, try this. I won't do this on new wipers cause I love'em when they're new but, I will do it when the wipers get to the point where you would normally want to throw them away anyway.

The emmery cloth is for the rough edges, like a barber cleaning/sharpening a razor on a leather strap. And the ammonia is for the plyability of the rubber

 

[CharBaby]

CapriRacer,
I forgot to mention that I have to agree with you on the ammonia on tires. If the ammonia does have any benefit on tires in the winter time, it would have to be applied throughout the winter not just one time. I don't beleive the elderly gentleman was doing this all winter long. I'm sure it was the siping that he noticed.

 

[CapriRacer]

Is there a chemist in the house?

I did a quick google search and the only thing I came up with was that ammonia is an incredibly good cleaner - which is why it's used for that purpose. I wonder if that's why it works as a good wiperblade rejunvenater.

 

[Pablo]

Ammonia is extremely harsh to some polymers. It can strip out plasticizers and cause cracking. Yet it stores fine in PE bottles. I have cleaned old worn wiper blades with ammonia, and indeed they cleaned up nicely, but 3 or 4 months later they shredded. I wasn't angry or anything because I did extend the life!

But tires are a different animal. Use on tires at your own risk!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia

 

[HWEaton]

I remember up in Vernal, UT bak in 83 when we lived there for a year during a strike year (Originally from Southern AZ) that people would pour bleach over their tires to gain traction if stuck in parking spots.

 

[CharBaby]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Is there a chemist in the house?

I did a quick google search and the only thing I came up with was that ammonia is an incredibly good cleaner - which is why it's used for that purpose. I wonder if that's why it works as a good wiperblade rejunvenater.
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Ammonia is extremely harsh to some polymers. It can strip out plasticizers and cause cracking. Yet it stores fine in PE bottles. I have cleaned old worn wiper blades with ammonia, and indeed they cleaned up nicely, but 3 or 4 months later they shredded. I wasn't angry or anything because I did extend the life!

But tires are a different animal. Use on tires at your own risk!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia



Well, the tires I was speaking of were from the late 60's, early 70's. With the technology of today, I haven't ever needed to use anything on tires for better traction. And with FWD/AWD we're fine.

And too, the wipers I have used in the past (prior to using ammonia toward the end of their life), would crack and tare anyway. IMHO, the ammonia doesn't make my wipers crack/tare any sooner than in my past experiences. If anything, the wipers have been lasting quite a bit longer.

It's those foil wrapped packets of alachol soaked cheesecloth that some wiper manufactures supply with their wipers that are detrimental to the wiperblades themselves. I have used them in the past(never again) to clean the wipers and all they did was dry out the rubber and make the wiper chatter over the windshield in the colder months, rendering the fairly new wiper "useless".
Thank you very much!

This is a tire siping post that has gone off topic a little and I take blame for that and apologize. If anyone wants to start another thread on wiper care I will gladly join in but, I am going to end it here by saying that I am on to something with the ammonia on wipers(not for tires) and I'll keep doing this for myself. But, I don't need a chemist. A doctor maybe!

 

[Shannow]

If I understand Oz rules sufficiently, siping would be tampering with a safety device, and be illegal...and I beleive that it probably should be...and transfer liability to the siper.

Especially if they charged money to do it while claiming an enhancement.

 

[Bruce T]

With the amount of engineering and testing involved in tread design, I wouldn't let an amateur tire shop guy with a blade make uncontrolled cuts on my tires. It's like allowing an untrained plastic surgeon to operate on your face.

 

[Kestas]

I just siped my shoes. It's an old pair with worn smooth rubber bottoms. I swear it works great in the winter snow.

 

[Ken2]

Originally Posted By: Stewart Fan
Les Schwab oversells and overcharges,but they'll run out to do it.

+1

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
I just siped my shoes. It's an old pair with worn smooth rubber bottoms. I swear it works great in the winter snow.


That's how siping came to be. Supposedly by a butcher looking to give his shoes better traction on the wet/bloody floor.


Siping is not a gimmick. It works and is quite common in the off road world. I have done a couple of sets, and especially noticed it on wet/slick rocks. I also cut my tires (modify my tread) with a tire groover. The good old Super Swampers are great candidates for both grooving and siping. The tube buggy I am building will run 38" MT Claws that are grooved.