Tire Marketing: "7 degC" and "Replace After X Years" Rules

[nobb]

Does anyone feel that in the last few years, there's been more of a push by tire "experts" that:

1. All season tires are useless below 7 degrees C and you should use winter tires
2. Tires older than 6 years should be replaced

These statements do have some truth to them, but seems to be based off of extremely conservative estimates assuming the worst of conditions. True in the absolute sense if you pick an aggressive data point on what you determine counts as a failure, but also untrue in almost 95%+ of normal applications. And of course, when safety is involved, what cruel soul would dare question the need to apply overly aggressive, fear mongering statements as being unnecessary?

I'm curious though, if these statements were carefully crafted by the tire industry moreso as a marketing generalization to boost sales. I feel that both consumers and tire shops alike have been blindly parroting these facts religiously much more so now than maybe 20 years ago, despite the fact that tire technology has been much more improved now than before. It almost reminds me of other such statements like "your mattress should be replaced after 10 years" and "baby seats should be replaced after 6 years."

Would be curious to see what experienced industry professionals have actually seen and experienced on these points.

 

[RayCJ]

From personal experiences, at 7 C (about 45 F) I have no problems at all with all-season (hereon A-S) tires. Did you mean -7 C ( about 20 F)? Even at that, I have not had problems with A-S tires. When temps hit -18 C (about 0F) I can tell they are unresponsive and take about 15 minutes of driving to feel somewhat normal.

Also, with 5 family cars, I buy a lot of tires. I have not seen statements from manufacturers about age but, I've noticed that tires start getting cracks around the sidewall areas after about 4 years. Each driver in my family has different annual mileage so I try select a tire that will need to be replaced at the 4 year mark.


Ray

 

[daves87rs]

If you live where there is a decent amount of snow, then winter tire are always a goof idea.


And after replacing tires are were 10 years old, I would wait more than seven years after seeing those tires...

 

[danez_yoda]

I take that as a rule of thumb. The problem with tires is that if you don't have a good easy to measure/calculate wear indicator that tells the end of life of the tire people will run them until they pop. Obviously dangerous for then and others nearby.

I agree 7C is pretty high in temperature for AS tire to not work well. -7C I could see because of black ice and slush. The variables for weather, road condition, sun exposure, road chemical exposure, etc are so wild the manufacturers put a tight rule of thumb to limit their potential liability.

My rule for old tires is ~8 years or obvious signs of cracks running with the circumference of the tires

https://www.thehulltruth.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=227235&stc=1&d=1331572963

 

[krzyss]

7C (45F) is magic temperature used for summer/winter tire switchover. I do not think it applies to AS tires.

KrzyÅ›

 

[AZjeff]

Tires age differently in Canada than they do in Arizona. My entire life in Pa nobody paid any attention to the date code on tires. It's different here in Az. No "one size fits all" rule about tires.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Rubber ages regardless of the miles. Some age faster than others so I think "6 yrs" is a good general rule of thumb.

My own anecdotal experience confirmed it. Years ago I had to change out a tire on my Jeep and used the original (never mounted) 8 yr old spare. The side wall of the tire developed a huge bulge after about 50 miles. I'm sure sitting in the back of the vehicle baking in the sun year round didn't do it any favors.


I know people don't like to hear this because they like to buy discounted/discontinued tires..

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by krzyss
7C (45F) is magic temperature used for summer/winter tire switchover. I do not think it applies to AS tires.

KrzyÅ›


This. A/S tires are designed to operate around 0C. I suspect whomever told the OP that 7C was a cut off was thinking about summer tires.

 

[IndyIan]

The engineering explained youtube guy did a test with summer rubber vs winter tire at freezing temps and the summer tires were still far better on dry pavement. I got caught once with my new BFG sport comp2's in 1C and wet and they still were pretty good really. Lots of winter tires have terrible wet grip like the yokohama Ig52c's I have and I'm sure the sport comp2's were better in the wet near freezing.
Now most good summer rubber actually cracks at -7C so you can't run those in areas even with dry winters and where I live, -7C can occur in October, so they come off then.

 

[CapriRacer]

The problem here is that there is no clear break point. There isn't a temperature or tread depth where the traction suddenly becomes much worse.

So since the legal system strongly encourages manufacturers and shop keepers to warn consumers about these sorts of problem, how does that get expressed?

Typically it's with a relatively arbitrary point and because consumers are pretty deaf, it gets shouted loudly and frequently. (Sort of like the weather forecasters and storms!) Even then, there are people who will be contrarians - just like in this thread!



.

 

[Pew]

Age of tires seem about right. The temperature though is off. I've ran summer tires in dry winters before and although the performance is greatly decreased and the ride quality was like being in a wagon in the flintstones, they still gripped better than winters. I believe either Motortrend or C&D did a test on summers vs winters on a below-freezing dry track and pretty much said the same thing.

 

[Pelican]

Originally Posted by nobb
Does anyone feel that in the last few years, there's been more of a push by tire "experts" that:
1. All season tires are useless below 7 degrees C and you should use winter tires
2. Tires older than 6 years should be replaced
These statements do have some truth to them, but seems to be based off of extremely conservative estimates assuming the worst of conditions. True in the absolute sense if you pick an aggressive data point on what you determine counts as a failure, but also untrue in almost 95%+ of normal applications. And of course, when safety is involved, what cruel soul would dare question the need to apply overly aggressive, fear mongering statements as being unnecessary?
I'm curious though, if these statements were carefully crafted by the tire industry moreso as a marketing generalization to boost sales. I feel that both consumers and tire shops alike have been blindly parroting these facts religiously much more so now than maybe 20 years ago, despite the fact that tire technology has been much more improved now than before. It almost reminds me of other such statements like "your mattress should be replaced after 10 years" and "baby seats should be replaced after 6 years."
Would be curious to see what experienced industry professionals have actually seen and experienced on these points.


I'll tell you my story, I bought a set of 4 nokian winters had them on for 5 years (40,000Km approx with plenty of tread) loved loved them, one evening 1st snowfall of the season I was travelling at 75Kmh on the 401 when suddenly for no reason whatsoever my car began drifting (the car ahead of me went straight) didn't touch the brakes nor the accelerator, hit the barriers and it was totalled. Wasn't hurt and the airbags didn't even deploy. Talked to my tire dealer (a very small but knowledgeable place) and he said that quite probably the rubber got hard due to age and the sipes didn't open so I skidded on ice he also said not to use tires older than 6yrs. At that time I didn't know that you could tell the date of manufacturing by looking at the tire, but I've learnt and now I don't buy any tire that is older than 6 months. As for summer tires I was told that 6c is the threshold. I changed to all weathers 5yrs ago on my wife's Outback and just now I put a set of Toyo Celcius on my RX350

 

[Brigadier]

Also, with the new class of all-weather tires, the tread compounds are getting to the point where they work well when hot or cold.

 

[FordBroncoVWJeta]

I recently bought some BFGs that where made in 2000. I didn't realize it when I picked them up

. Decided to use them anyway since they where cheap, looked new, and it was going on a truck that barely gets used. They seem to be holding up. I don't trust them though. They have some pretty deep cracking after mounting them. They will get replaced soon. I have seen some tires that are sidewall cracked that are 4-5 years old, so bad I would have taken them off my car.

 

[SubLGT]

Originally Posted by krzyss
7C (45F) is magic temperature used for summer/winter tire switchover. I do not think it applies to AS tires.

KrzyÅ›


It applies to Continental all-season tires, at least in the USA:

http://www.continentaltire.com/news/beat-old-man-winter-punch-continental-tires-and-these-tips

Quote
As Old Man Winter starts to make appearances across the U.S., it's time to start thinking about winter tires. Did you know that once the temperature drops below 45-degrees Fahrenheit, an all-season tire's ability to grip the road decreases. It's a fact.

"All-season and winter tires are about as similar as sandals and snowshoes," said Travis Roffler, director of marketing, Continental Tire. "Summer and all-season tires just aren't designed to hold the road in the same way that winter tires do. During winter, without the proper tires, drivers can experience a dramatic drop in grip, resulting in longer stopping distances, less driving control and by far, less confidence."

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by SubLGT
Originally Posted by krzyss
7C (45F) is magic temperature used for summer/winter tire switchover. I do not think it applies to AS tires.

KrzyÅ›


It applies to Continental all-season tires, at least in the USA:

http://www.continentaltire.com/news/beat-old-man-winter-punch-continental-tires-and-these-tips

Quote
As Old Man Winter starts to make appearances across the U.S., it's time to start thinking about winter tires. Did you know that once the temperature drops below 45-degrees Fahrenheit, an all-season tire's ability to grip the road decreases. It's a fact.

"All-season and winter tires are about as similar as sandals and snowshoes," said Travis Roffler, director of marketing, Continental Tire. "Summer and all-season tires just aren't designed to hold the road in the same way that winter tires do. During winter, without the proper tires, drivers can experience a dramatic drop in grip, resulting in longer stopping distances, less driving control and by far, less confidence."



They're funny. They of course don't mention the degree is lost grip. Is it 5% or a lot more? I would remind Continental that in the US winter temps frequently fluctuate above and below 45F and that perhaps they should spend their energy manufacturing a summer RFT that doesn't form a bulging side-wall just by looking at a pot hole.

 

[maxdustington]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
My own anecdotal experience confirmed it. Years ago I had to change out a tire on my Jeep and used the original (never mounted) 8 yr old spare. The side wall of the tire developed a huge bulge after about 50 miles. I'm sure sitting in the back of the vehicle baking in the sun year round didn't do it any favors.
My dad has an old spare on his 97 Sierra that I'm pretty sure is from model year car the year I was born (1988). It's a work truck so it gets beat and he doesn't wrench.
My snowies are from 2009 and got excellent grip last year, we will see how they perform this this year.
Originally Posted by AZjeff
Tires age differently in Canada than they do in Arizona. My entire life in Pa nobody paid any attention to the date code on tires. It's different here in Az. No "one size fits all" rule about tires.
+1 I think UV plays a large role. The all seasons I got with my car are pretty old too but are in good condition, but the paint on my car seems to point to the fact that it spent a lot of time in a parking garage.
Originally Posted by Pelican
I'll tell you my story, I bought a set of 4 nokian winters had them on for 5 years (40,000Km approx with plenty of tread) loved loved them, one evening 1st snowfall of the season I was travelling at 75Kmh on the 401 when suddenly for no reason whatsoever my car began drifting (the car ahead of me went straight) didn't touch the brakes nor the accelerator, hit the barriers and it was totalled. Wasn't hurt and the airbags didn't even deploy. Talked to my tire dealer (a very small but knowledgeable place) and he said that quite probably the rubber got hard due to age and the sipes didn't open so I skidded on ice he also said not to use tires older than 6yrs. At that time I didn't know that you could tell the date of manufacturing by looking at the tire, but I've learnt and now I don't buy any tire that is older than 6 months. As for summer tires I was told that 6c is the threshold. I changed to all weathers 5yrs ago on my wife's Outback and just now I put a set of Toyo Celcius on my RX350
Sounds like he saw an opportunity to play the expert and get you to buy tires, the only thing that can really save you on ice is studs.
Originally Posted by nobb
I'm curious though, if these statements were carefully crafted by the tire industry moreso as a marketing generalization to boost sales. I feel that both consumers and tire shops alike have been blindly parroting these facts religiously much more so now than maybe 20 years ago, despite the fact that tire technology has been much more improved now than before. It almost reminds me of other such statements like "your mattress should be replaced after 10 years" and "baby seats should be replaced after 6 years."
"Commuting counts as severe service, you should come back here and pay us to change your oil every 3k miles on your naturally aspriated, port injected car"

EDIT: If old tires were dangerous, there would have been legislation against them by now. I said this in a recent thread: I have never seen or heard of a car failing a safety inspection because of the date code on the tires. It would be in the tire manufacturer's best interest to get such legislation passed, and they are definitely big enough influence politics. What might be true in areas where cars bake outside in the desert sun has become a marketing technique in temperate zones where there is a greatly diminished UV threat. There's too many low mileage old snow tires here for me to buy that nonsense.

 

[DrDanger]

My 10 year old Falkens saw 100mph emergency swerve on the highway to avoid half a lane's worth of pothole. Passed with no issue. My rears are new though.
Michelin, Falken and Conti, in the EU at least, recommend 10yrs max. Summer, winter or all-season. This is reasonable. I would not overthink it. That being said using common sense would not hurt, change your tires if and when they feel plasticky.

 

[69GTX]

Highly dependent on conditions.

My 1998 Goodyear Eagle F1 summer tires finally came off the car in 2014 having 16K miles and about 40% tread left. The tires had zero cracks, no UV damage, and were supple as could be inside and out.....16 yrs old. I took them off solely because of the potential risk just "if" something went wrong on the highway doing 70 mph. The new tires I purchased felt no better.

With 95% of daily drivers these days, the UV exposure will probably kill the tires long before 10 yrs shows up.

 

[edyvw]

It is present in the industry for a long time, at least in Europe where a lot of countries mandate winter tires (not all-season) in winter.
Now how AS tires behave in cold depends on AS tire, is it high-performance, is it grand touring? As with everything with AS tires it is compromise, and when it comes to tires, compromise usually means mediocracy.
As for years, when it hits 5 years they are off of my car.