Tire Concentricity and Balance

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Here is an interesting short article on tire uniformity:
http://www.tirereview.com/article/75476/from_plant_to_store_todays_tires_must_be_in_balance.aspx

Some excerpts:

"....................Two decades ago, all tires were built entirely by hand. Talented, well-trained tire builders would apply beads, plies and other components on a rotating drum to form an uncured tire. But even a builder’s extensive experience couldn’t prevent deviations in splice widths and locations, which would create heavy and light spots in finished products.

Today, computer-controlled equipment applies a tire’s components and adjusts to constant feedback from monitoring equipment. Precise positioning and uniform splices produce near-perfectly balanced tires, even for tires that still see a bit of hand-crafting............."

"...........All tire companies were hesitant to specify their tolerance goals, but Franklin says every tire leaving a Goodyear plant is screened to stay well within auto manufacturers’ tolerance requirements. “Every tire is mounted on a highly accurate, true-balance, split-wheel system for inspection. If it doesn’t pass the test, it doesn’t leave the plant.”

Michelin said it uses standard industry uniformity machines to measure radial and lateral forces, as well as imbalance and runout of tires it produces. Concentricity is part of those measurements. The company sets tight limits for all measured parameters, based on actual vehicle testing, as well as consumer feedback.

The end result is that balancing really isn’t needed for a top-brand tire when it first arrives at a dealership........."

"......Then there is the wheel itself, which no one can assume is perfectly balanced – or even as close to perfect as a top-end tire would be...."
 
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The tires distort as they are being driven.
So this is the main out of round/balance problem.
A tiny bit elsewhere doesn't matter.
 
It would be interesting for someone with access to a balancer to first balance the bare wheels and measure runout, then install the tire with the red or yellow ink spot at the steel wheel dimple or alloy wheel valve and report on the imbalance and concentricity.

It might have been ten years ago when the tire shop tried seven GY Assurance TripleTred tires to find four that were close to round. I'll believe what the article reports when I see it (last year's Michelin MXV Primacy tires were much better than the older GY).
 
Originally Posted By: Ken2
It would be interesting for someone with access to a balancer to first balance the bare wheels and measure runout, then install the tire with the red or yellow ink spot at the steel wheel dimple or alloy wheel valve and report on the imbalance and concentricity.

It might have been ten years ago when the tire shop tried seven GY Assurance TripleTred tires to find four that were close to round. I'll believe what the article reports when I see it (last year's Michelin MXV Primacy tires were much better than the older GY).


This is a proven technique. Used by virtually ever vehicle manufacturer for over 30 years.
 
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A balancing machine that simulates load [which doesn't exist] would be the best.
Until then we have to pretend the tire does not distort when on the road.
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
A balancing machine that simulates load [which doesn't exist] would be the best.
Until then we have to pretend the tire does not distort when on the road.


Sounds like you are talking about road force balancing. For which there is the Hunter GSP9700.
 
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
A balancing machine that simulates load [which doesn't exist] would be the best.
Until then we have to pretend the tire does not distort when on the road.


Sounds like you are talking about road force balancing. For which there is the Hunter GSP9700.


Oh yes... But that's steady state.
 
mechtech2,

I'm a little confused.

It sounds like you are saying that tires don't operate at the loads the Hunter machine applies to the tire - and that's true. And while the machine might not give the correct absolute values, it at least gives relative values. Those would be good enough to work with.

Besides, it's all we have and we should make use of what tools are available.
 
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
A balancing machine that simulates load [which doesn't exist] would be the best.
Until then we have to pretend the tire does not distort when on the road.


Sounds like you are talking about road force balancing. For which there is the Hunter GSP9700.


Exactly!

This is a huge help with some tires. Many never need it.
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
A balancing machine that simulates load [which doesn't exist] would be the best.
Until then we have to pretend the tire does not distort when on the road.


I'd like to hear more of this. How does road distortion affect balance when that distortion is not rotating around the wheel axis? Can you refer to a write-up somewhere?
 
Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
A balancing machine that simulates load [which doesn't exist] would be the best.
Until then we have to pretend the tire does not distort when on the road.


I'd like to hear more of this. How does road distortion affect balance when that distortion is not rotating around the wheel axis? Can you refer to a write-up somewhere?

He is not talking about road distortion, or at least I don't think he is.

I believe he is talking about tire distortion when it is operated under load. Another words, under load, the tire sidewall flexes. Now, if there is some irregularity in the tire, it may flex differently in one section of the tire vs. another section. This different flexing characteristic may be felt as a vibration to the driver. Since a road-force balancer can simulate a load, it can detect such irregularities.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
A balancing machine that simulates load [which doesn't exist] would be the best.
Until then we have to pretend the tire does not distort when on the road.


I'd like to hear more of this. How does road distortion affect balance when that distortion is not rotating around the wheel axis? Can you refer to a write-up somewhere?

He is not talking about road distortion, or at least I don't think he is.

I believe he is talking about tire distortion when it is operated under load. Another words, under load, the tire sidewall flexes. Now, if there is some irregularity in the tire, it may flex differently in one section of the tire vs. another section. This different flexing characteristic may be felt as a vibration to the driver. Since a road-force balancer can simulate a load, it can detect such irregularities.

Hmm, perhaps... It was the words "distort" and "road" in the post that caught me out.
 
Originally Posted By: Ken2
It would be interesting for someone with access to a balancer to first balance the bare wheels and measure runout, then install the tire with the red or yellow ink spot at the steel wheel dimple or alloy wheel valve and report on the imbalance and concentricity.


I did just this when I put new Yoko AT/Ss on my Mountaineer, mainly because I wanted to verify that the rims were not bent. I had one rim that was not balanced, so I added the appropriate amount of weight to make it balanced then installed the tires. I still had to apply weights to all 4 rims to get the tires balanced, so in the end I would have been just as well off as if I didn't balance the rim first. I had the equipment, so I thought it would at least be interesting to do the experiment.
 
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Here is an interesting short article on tire uniformity:
http://www.tirereview.com/article/75476/from_plant_to_store_todays_tires_must_be_in_balance.aspx………….


"……...What the consumer really wants is a tire that not only is round or concentric, but also perfectly balanced with uniform distribution of mass………………...Then there is the wheel itself, which no one can assume is perfectly balanced – or even as close to perfect as a top-end tire would be….."

I find it hard to believe the quote above from the linked article. A cast and machined wheel is inferior to a top end tire in uniformity??
Capri Racer, what do you think? Do wheels lag behind tires in uniformity and concentricity and roundness?
 
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
"……...What the consumer really wants is a tire that not only is round or concentric, but also perfectly balanced with uniform distribution of mass………………...Then there is the wheel itself, which no one can assume is perfectly balanced – or even as close to perfect as a top-end tire would be….."

I find it hard to believe the quote above from the linked article. A cast and machined wheel is inferior to a top end tire in uniformity??
Capri Racer, what do you think? Do wheels lag behind tires in uniformity and concentricity and roundness?


That was one of the details I disagreed with.

As a general rule, wheels are more round than tires are - Michelin's quote not withstanding. Tires have made enormous strides in balance and uniformity over the years, but there is still a long way to go - and tires are still worse than the wheels.

I have heard the Chinese manufactured wheels started out pretty poorly, but have gotten better over time. I am under the impression they still need some more improvement.

Oh and the "concentricity" thing? I've always used that term to mean how well the tire seats on the rim - that is, is the tire centered. This has more to do with the guy mounting it than anything. Lots of folks think they don't really need mounting lube - and I am of the opposite opinion. I think LOTS of lube is needed - and in spots I have never seen anyone use lube - the bead seat area on the rim.
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
…………...Lots of folks think they don't really need mounting lube - ……………...


Wow, really? Sounds like a good way to damage the tire bead.

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I think LOTS of lube is needed - and in spots I have never seen anyone use lube - the bead seat area on the rim.


I think shops are reluctant to use a lot of lube, because they are worried the tire will rotate on the wheel soon after the customer leaves, and lose balance.
 
For sure it is a problem, but you have have to use lube, and drive easy for a few day. I have marked drag tires for that reason, and should probably do the same for all tires. I have had this happen myself years ago. Day after having tires mounted, I went to a autocross, and braked hard and felt the tires shudder, and after that had major vibration from the tires slipping on the wheel.
 
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