Timing Chain Wear, LL-01, and moly as remedy

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Thanks OFM. After considering what others have said and doing a bit of research. I am leaning towards shortening up the change-intervals (3-4k miles) to keep soot levels moderate, instead of using an additive. Once I run through my stash of Castrol Edge 0W-40 (4 jugs... from my X5 that is now on M1 HM 10W-30 and our previous Mini), I will consider PP Euro 5W-40 which contains moly.

I have not seen if Liqui-Moly Special Tec LL 5W-30 (LM's LL-01 approved 5W-30) contains moly. If it does, that could also be an option. Their 5W-40 does not contain any (neither does Motul or Castrol).
 
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
I am leaning towards shortening up the change-intervals (3-4k miles) to keep soot levels moderate, instead of using an additive.
Yes, that DI soot thing is a bugger to get around. The particle sizes tend to be very small from some papers I read, meaning a Fram Ultra or even an Amsoil bypass filter can't clean it up (below 1 micron soot sizes).

Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
I have not seen if Liqui-Moly Special Tec LL 5W-30 (LM's LL-01 approved 5W-30) contains moly. If it does, that could also be an option. Their 5W-40 does not contain any (neither does Motul or Castrol).
Its odd how the brand name Liqui'Moly' motor oil usually has no moly in it. Wonder how many people are fooled by that in the store?

BMW Motorsports RLL has used the SRT "hellcat" engine oil before, the Pennzoil Ultra 0w40 SRT oil, also re-branded Mopar dealership oil. ... It has 275 ppm moly.

"In 2015, Pennzoil® became the Premium Technology Partner for BMW Motorsport. BMW Team RLL uses Pennzoil Ultra Platinum™ with PurePlus™ Technology in both BMW Z4 vehicles competing in the TUDOR United Sportscar Championship GTLM field."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaLGIZHO9Y0

So I'd guess it likes BMW/Mini engines too, but of course not LL-01 officially.

BMWoil.JPG
 
The PUP 0W-40 "SRT" certainly looks like a robust oil, but unfortunately, not LL-01. However, there are also ways to get around using a non-approved oil, but documenting that approved oil was used. It's too bad PUP 0W-40 and PP Euro 5W-40 don't come in jugs.
 
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
The PUP 0W-40 "SRT" certainly looks like a robust oil, but unfortunately, not LL-01. However, there are also ways to get around using a non-approved oil, but documenting that approved oil was used. It's too bad PUP 0W-40 and PP Euro 5W-40 don't come in jugs.


It has higher NOACK than the Euro oils, that's my biggest hang-up with it.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
The PUP 0W-40 "SRT" certainly looks like a robust oil, but unfortunately, not LL-01. However, there are also ways to get around using a non-approved oil, but documenting that approved oil was used. It's too bad PUP 0W-40 and PP Euro 5W-40 don't come in jugs.


It has higher NOACK than the Euro oils, that's my biggest hang-up with it.


How high? For short change intervals, I don't think I would sweat it. An oil with a Noack of zero would still cause intake valve deposits on a GDI engine.
 
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
The PUP 0W-40 "SRT" certainly looks like a robust oil, but unfortunately, not LL-01. However, there are also ways to get around using a non-approved oil, but documenting that approved oil was used. It's too bad PUP 0W-40 and PP Euro 5W-40 don't come in jugs.


It has higher NOACK than the Euro oils, that's my biggest hang-up with it.


How high? For short change intervals, I don't think I would sweat it. An oil with a Noack of zero would still cause intake valve deposits on a GDI engine.


I think it was around 13% when M1 0w-40 at the time was 8.8%.
 
JAG, Lubegard BioTech does look like the best here. Would need about 7 oz in a 5-quart sump to raise moly by 100 ppm.
 
Originally Posted by StevieC
Just put a catch can on and NOACK goes away.
lol.gif



If only it were that simple!
 
I have long respected MolaKule's insight on this forum. I came across this thread regarding "Hy-Per Lube - Zinc Replacement Additive." From what I can gather reading Mola's posts, it's the real deal, and is synergistic with ZDDP according Mola at approx. 1oz per quart. It's essentially a pure polymer ester that reduces wear without the use of elemental additives (Mo, B, Zn, P, etc.).

Now to decide between Lubegard Bio/Tech and Hy-Per Luve ZRA.

Mola, in the case of soot-induced timing chain wear, which would you pick?
 
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Use Ceratec (another LiquiMoly company product) as its got the same concentration of moly as LM MOS2, and the Ceratec uses ammonium molibdate (MSDS says).


I thought LM Cera Tec was a ceramic based anti-wear additive. The Mustang guys with ticking Coyote V8s have been using Cera Tec which cures the ticking almost instantly.

https://products.liqui-moly.com/cera-tec-1.html
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Use Ceratec (another LiquiMoly company product) as its got the same concentration of moly as LM MOS2, and the Ceratec uses ammonium molibdate (MSDS says).
I thought LM Cera Tec was a ceramic based anti-wear additive. The Mustang guys with ticking Coyote V8s have been using Cera Tec which cures the ticking almost instantly. https://products.liqui-moly.com/cera-tec-1.html

Ceratec is mostly a moly treatment.
Not as much AW as it is FM here. .... It really doesn't have much of the ceramic boron compounds, according to VOAs which show 359 ppm boron. Of course this stuff is diluted down quite a bit in the sump, so a 20:1 hit of this would mean around a 18 ppm boost of boron. A 30:1 dose would be only 12 ppm more boron, when moly goes up by ~100 ppm. I'm not sure if the ammonium molybdate form used in Ceratec is as good, or even oil soluble, like molyDTC is though.
 
I am not that familiar with the design of the timing chain/guide system in that vehicle. But, ZRA might help with wear while reducing metallic components in your oil, so I think ZRA would be the better choice.

I have found ZRA also reduces friction and helps with cleaning, in that order.
 
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Use Ceratec (another LiquiMoly company product) as its got the same concentration of moly as LM MOS2, and the Ceratec uses ammonium molibdate (MSDS says).
I thought LM Cera Tec was a ceramic based anti-wear additive. The Mustang guys with ticking Coyote V8s have been using Cera Tec which cures the ticking almost instantly. https://products.liqui-moly.com/cera-tec-1.html

Ceratec is mostly a moly treatment.
Not as much AW as it is FM here. .... It really doesn't have much of the ceramic boron compounds, according to VOAs which show 359 ppm boron. Of course this stuff is diluted down quite a bit in the sump, so a 20:1 hit of this would mean around a 18 ppm boost of boron. A 30:1 dose would be only 12 ppm more boron, when moly goes up by ~100 ppm. I'm not sure if the ammonium molybdate form used in Ceratec is as good, or even oil soluble, like molyDTC is though.


They never mention moly in the product description.
https://pim.liqui-moly.de/pidoc/P000017/3721-CeraTec-23.0-us.pdf

I don't see any mention of moly in the composition.
https://sichdatonline.chemical-check.de/Dokumente/566/3721_0013_21-08-2015_EN.pdf
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
The PUP 0W-40 "SRT" certainly looks like a robust oil, but unfortunately, not LL-01. However, there are also ways to get around using a non-approved oil, but documenting that approved oil was used. It's too bad PUP 0W-40 and PP Euro 5W-40 don't come in jugs.


It has higher NOACK than the Euro oils, that's my biggest hang-up with it.
Why?
 
Originally Posted by CT8
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
The PUP 0W-40 "SRT" certainly looks like a robust oil, but unfortunately, not LL-01. However, there are also ways to get around using a non-approved oil, but documenting that approved oil was used. It's too bad PUP 0W-40 and PP Euro 5W-40 don't come in jugs.


It has higher NOACK than the Euro oils, that's my biggest hang-up with it.
Why?


Means it is more volatile, so it is blended out of lighter bases and probably has more VII's in it. The max Noack spec mandated by Mercedes is 10%, which is why the Euro oils all bat below that.
 
Originally Posted by MolaKule
I am not that familiar with the design of the timing chain/guide system in that vehicle. But, ZRA might help with wear while reducing metallic components in your oil, so I think ZRA would be the better choice.

I have found ZRA also reduces friction and helps with cleaning, in that order.


Thank you Mola.

I'll be doing a 3k run of Castrol Edge 0W-30 with no ZRA, followed by one with (half bottle). With a 4.5qt oil capacity, that's about 1.3 oz. ZRA to 1 quart oil.

1,000 miles into the current OCI and the oil is tar black. Amazing how dirty these GDI engines are.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by MolaKule
I am not that familiar with the design of the timing chain/guide system in that vehicle. But, ZRA might help with wear while reducing metallic components in your oil, so I think ZRA would be the better choice.

I have found ZRA also reduces friction and helps with cleaning, in that order.


Do you know what's in Rislone? Does it have ZRA or moly?I

I can't find any info about its contents. I know couple of people who love it. I almost bought one the other day for one of my old cars that makes some ticking sound till it warms up. But didn't buy it since was hard to believe it will fix the problem.
Thanks
 
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