Timing Belt Slipped-Engine Wrecked, Worth Saving?

[Ramjet Roger]

All:

Check out the link for a series of pictures of the damage done when the rear camshaft sprocket slipped 2 notches. The damage is amazing.

Question: does anyone think this engine is worth saving?

The engine is in a 1999 Chrysler Cirrus. It's a 2.5L V6 with 134,000 miles. It was in great shape before the "incident". My last 3,200 OCI finished with no noticeable oil consumption. The engine was strong, smooth, and so was the transmission. I bought the car at 129,000 miles and replaced all the hoses, new PS pump, new plugs, new plug wires, PCV, drive belts, and the timing belt and pulleys. Shoot, I can still see the original hone markings on the cylinder walls. The heads to totally clean with no sludge or discoloration whatsoever.

I suspect the sprocket slipped the notches because it stretched after the break-in. I probably didn't set the tension tight enough--at least that's what I think. And, oh yes, it was a Gates belt...

I was thinking of dropping the oil pan, cleaning out all the metal flakes, replacing the pistons, rings, connecting rods, rod bearing, cylinder head (complete - valves and camshaft) , and just honing the bores ever so lightly. I'd do this all in the car--without pulling the engine.

My guess is parts and tools would be around $1,200-$1,500.

Is it worth it? Just replace with a cheapie rebuilt? Or just junk her???

http://mysite.verizon.net/resqbxff/mychryslercirrustimingbeltfailure/

 

[Camu Mahubah]

----!...Sorry brother...that sucks...How much will a used or rebuilt motor cost? I'd start pricing a used motor from a junkyard. I dunno if you could get that engine clean enough to rebuild without taking it out of the car...

 

[MrCritical]

Used engine is the way to go. Look for a 30 day warranty.

 

[Jim 5]

Holy Carnage! I am going to show these photos to my wife to explain why I blew $650 for a new timing belt (and water pump) at the dealership for her Acura.

I would pick up a used engine. I think it would cost significantly less, and take you way less time. Try www.car-parts.com for your specific application. This site will let you know which auto wreckers near you have the engine you need in stock, how many miles are on it, and how much they want for it.

 

[swalve]

Quote:

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I suspect the sprocket slipped the notches because it stretched after the break-in. I probably didn't set the tension tight enough--at least that's what I think. And, oh yes, it was a Gates belt...

---

That's about the most tragic engine damage I've ever seen. Wow.

I've heard that timing belts are supposed to be surprisingly loose. Were any of the teeth sheered off?

 

[Master ACiD]

oh my! thats just how i got my current car, a 96 stratus 2.5 v6. its basically the same car as youre cirrus, except i have the luxury version. but we have the same engine and trans.

my car i got for free. it has a broken timing belt and the valves kissed the pistons. i was lucky in that all i had to do was remove the valves replace with new ones. the pistons were in perfect condition. the whole rebuild cost me $200 since in did the work myself. now ive got a sweet car for $200.

in youre case, thats alot of carnage. youre cylinders are no doubt scratched. youll never get all the metal out of the engine, some will find its way into youre bearings and kill it. at this point youre looking at a full rebuild, or grab a used engine and replace that timing belt!

dont just slap parts in youre current engine. rebuild or replace. if you werent so far away i would help ya. actually, if you need tech assistance, pm me and ill give ya my phone number. like i said i did the top end on that exact motor so i have an idea of whats involved.

 

[alreadygone]

Another vote for carparts.com if you decide to go used.

Bob

 

[Aldaris]

Junk it.

 

[Cutehumor]

wow, only owned the car for 5,000 miles and the timing belt ruined the engine. I feel bad for you. My vote is if you keep the car, I would install a used engine.

 

[va3ux]

This engine requires a complete and total rebuild. I would think that $1500 will just get you started. $2500 - $3000 in parts is more likely. Pistons are $65 each - there's $400. Connecting rods are $125 a piece - there's another $750 ($1150 so far). A new head is close to $700 (factory new) - much less for a used one of course. Bearings, rings, gaskets, valves, head bolts, possibly a new crank and new oil pump. With sales tax, you'll be at $3K before you know what happened.

A good used engine will be more economical.

 

[alanu]

I highly advise NOT to put in a used engine. The engine platform seems to be an oil eater regardless of how well a person's OCI's is. Many chrysler products seems to burn oil IMO. Getting a used engine with the idea of having a car for a long period of time will be a gamble.

I would NOT blame the gates timing belt. I commonly see improperly installed T belts grenading engines or burning valves.

Either have the intentions of fixing it with a used engine and selling it in a short duration of time. OR get a fresh rebuild with the intentions of keeping the car for a longer period of time.

Personally I'd retire the car and put the money into a more reliable platform.

 

[va3ux]

By the way, my condolences on the damage. Thank you for posting the pictures. I've sent the link to a few people who would rather not think about the expense of having a timing belt changed.

 

[dwendt44]

I've known of guys that would just do that one side of the engine to save money.
3 pistons, rods and valves. Light hone, good rings and call it a day.
Check the head for flatness.

 

[GMBoy]

Sorry to hear about your loss. However, you have done a great service to this board by posting those pictures. Thank You. Really goes to show how much damage can occur with interference engines. I never saw such damage before!

 

[Shannow]

I'd say second hand engine.

I think you would have been better off if the belt broke.

At least it would only have been 3 or 4 smashed valves.

I recall when a neighbour rebelted a diahatsu 3 cyl job and couldn't start it.

I tried hand cranking and it locked up at TDC. Starter motor could drive it through the lock-up...only a couple of teeth out as well.

I shudder to think what would have happend to his car flipping if he'd got her to fire.

 

[Quest]

I second alanu's comments.

Also: don't blame it on Gates belt for you don't know what had been done to your t-belt job. If you aren't mechanically-competent to begin with, here's the scoop RE: T-belt job that many backyard monkeys don't think carefully/do them carefully or simply disregard them entirely which ended up wrecking the engine:

(1) always buy the best OE quality timing belt available from the market: Gates, Mitsuboshi, Conti, etc. Never buy carappy ones that you don't know where they came from

(2) always insist in getting something totally new straight out of the factory package, and the belt has never experienced any kinks, abnormal sharp bends and such.

(3) ALWAYS buy new, highest quality possible water pump and idler tensioner pulley bearing assembly that $$ can buy and stay away from shoddy stuff that are made in china re-main in China.

(4)rigidly follow the manufacturers instructions in properly installing the pulleys, tensioners, cam/crank sprocket bolt torque,etc. Also follow rigidly the instructions on properly setting up the t-belt "slack". You'll be genuinely amazed how many backyardigans would have ignore/disregard all these finer points and thus causing engine failures further down the road.

Lastly, T-belt is designed not to stretch to begin with. If you insist that your Gates/Mitsuboshi/Conti t-belt has stretched (or subsequently lead to T-belt failures), look closer for almost 100% of the time fault lies in the mech who installs it (belt tension too tight) and not the belt itself.

Q.

 

[dnewton3]

If you can cover all the labor yourself, and the vehicle chassis is in good shape, it's cost effective to get a quality reman engine (Jasper comes to mind) and put it in. Where can you get a used vehicle with moderate milage for $2000? Then drive it for another 100k miles or more. If you bought a new car, it would be at least $250 a month for a cheapie. In a year, you'd sink $3000 in a new car.

If you DON'T have the tools/ability, it gets much murkier in the financial waters. Still a reman might make sense.

Rebuilding (just adding some new parts) to the existing engine won't address all the ancillary damages. A reman would.

Sit down. Make some calls to reman suppliers. Run the numbers. How long do you need the car to last? How much for the reman? How much for labor? How many OTHER repairs are likely for that car? Contrast these to a new vehicle payment of 60 months.

Almost always, a reman is cheaper in the long run, if you can abide by just a few concessions; downtime, old car smell, etc.

 

[unDummy]

Its always worth fixing a car if the 'fix' lasts longer then the cost/labor. This is for you to decide.

Older car=cheaper insurance=cheaper taxes=all issues already knnown=plenty of salvage yard parts.......so, there is more money to be saved with a simple engine replacement.

I don't know why we must spend $25k every 3 years on a car when you can get the same with rebuilts. Marketing/advertising has most consumers brainwashed that newer and fancy needs to be in the driveway. Let your budget and goals make that decision for you. Don't let 'commercials' control your spending.

Visit the salvage yards for the engine. Should be plenty enough of 'wrecked' low mileage drivertrains out there.

 

[BGK]

Quote:

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I highly advise NOT to put in a used engine. The engine platform seems to be an oil eater regardless of how well a person's OCI's is. Many chrysler products seems to burn oil IMO. Getting a used engine with the idea of having a car for a long period of time will be a gamble.



I would NOT blame the gates timing belt. I commonly see improperly installed T belts grenading engines or burning valves.

Either have the intentions of fixing it with a used engine and selling it in a short duration of time. OR get a fresh rebuild with the intentions of keeping the car for a longer period of time.

Personally I'd retire the car and put the money into a more reliable platform.

---

I agree totally; the cost to repair is way more than the car is worth and it would likely be a headache in other areas because it appears to have not been properly maintained to begin with.

 

[JTK]

Roger, I'm not familiar with this particular engine's timing belt setup, but you must have lost the tensioner or an idler pulley while on the fly. Did you have the RPMs way up when she crashed? That's the worst valve crasher aftermath I've ever seen.

Timing belts don't really stretch an appreciable amount as this would throw off your valve timing. Given the amount of interference built into this engine and the resources you've already put into it, I wouldn't even consider throwing more money into it.

Joel