Three way switch question

[JHZR2]

We recently installed a three-way switch to control a new light that we installed in our basement stairway. We installed two leviton 5241 model switches. The document for their install can be seen here:

http://communities.leviton.com/servlet/JiveServlet/previewBody/1926-102-1-2857/Ins 5241 5641.pdf

These switches are set up so that you can have both a three-way and a single throw switch within the same box. They were perfect for what we are trying to set up. The problem is that we're having an issue with the three-way functionality. The switches are set up like this:

Source ----- S1=======S2-----Load

The neutral and ground carry through from the source to the load over a 12/3 wire. On one switch the hot neutral and ground are shared with the single throw switch going to another load. On the other switch we removed the tab between the two and have the single throw switch serving as a switch loop to a separate light. Everything works perfect except for the three-way switch.

The issue that we have is that on the three-way switch the light will only turn on when the switch is on one specific configuration. Switches have to be to the left side in order for the light to work. That is the only configuration where the light works, or in other words you cannot turn the switch on independently from one end or the other. The light will only turn on if the switch at one and is to the left and then the switch to the other end is toggled to the left.

The travelers connect to the switch on the opposite side as the hot source or the load wire connect. Given that the common hot on the one switch works fine and that the switch travelers connect up via 12/3 wire I'm I know for certain that it is not wired backwards. However the travelers maybe connected to different screw positions on the two switches. Does this matter?

Is this normal I was under the impression that three-way switches did not matter which configuration the travelers were in. The switch instructions do not show this switch being used together with another just like it in the configuration we have. However it also seems to imply that this is just a normal three-way switch so should the traveler configuration matter as to which screw each wire is connected to on each switch?

Curious if anyone has seen this problem before...thank you.

 

[HerrStig]

As I recall, you need an extra conductor in the cable to make that work. I had a problem like yours in a new house, the cable was there but one of the switches was just a two terminal. Plenty of info if you just Google it.

 

[The_Jeff]

You can wire it so the three way will work, but then you'll have issues making the single basement light work, as it won't be able to count on any incoming hot screw for having power all the time.

If you busted the tabs, you should be able to bring a second hot in to the basement non-three-way switch and send it off to the light. Hopefully that wiring is accessible.

so the question becomes, do you have plenty of power in the basement? b/c then you can have the 3 way part of your upstairs switch be the "slave" with incoming travellers on red and black, and outgoing white (with black tape ring) down to the lower box, where it meets neutral and goes off to the 3 way bulb. Your upstairs 2-way still runs off its hot, but needs its tabs broken. your downstairs 2-way gets its power from "downstairs source".

 

[JHZR2]

The three-way switches on both ends have two travelers as they should. Nothing wrong there. On one and the hot, neutral and ground share with another load switched on the standard switch. The other load switches and works perfectly, so it is clear that the hot going into the switch is correct, as is the neutral and ground.

The two travelers are there connecting to the other switch and there is obviously continuity with neutral ground since in one switch position the light works. On that second switch with the tab broken off the single throw switch also works perfectly as a switch loop as that light operates correct. So the only issue is the functionality of the three way switch, not of the functionality of the two single throw switches that are also installed there, which operate exactly as they're supposed to.

So there lies my question I have verification that on a single throw switch all the wiring is correct. But somehow the configuration of the travelers must be such that it only allows the light that is switched on the three way portion to operate with the switches in one specific configuration. And that's what is confusing to me is why this would be the case.

 

[The_Jeff]

I feel like one of your 3 ways is in backwards. Try removing the lower one and wire nutting one of the two travellers to the load black wire. Operate the upstairs switch. Now switch travellers. Should be the other. Repeat with the downstairs switch, and the upstairs hot directly wired to one traveller then the other.

You could have a dud switch right out of the box for example too.

 

[JHZR2]

Do the travelers have to be at the same screw position on each switch?

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Do the travelers have to be at the same screw position on each switch?

No, that doesn't matter as long as neither traveller is on the "common" screw terminal.
I'm still trying to figure out what you got going on in spite of your pretty good description of the wirng you did. I'm confused about the single pole application. Is there a possibility there is a back fed voltage from the next load that is keeping the light "hot"?

 

[JHZR2]

Don't think so. The two single pole loads operate as they should. Under any/all positions of the three-way.

I would imagine that if another element of the circuit was bad, for example lack of continuity on neutral, the light wouldn't work in any position, as the ground wires are just on the chassis.

Let's see if I can text-draw it better:
Code:


N&G -------------------------------

| 3-way load

Source ----)-- S1========S2 -------

| S3 S4

| | ||

Load 1 Load 2 Sw hot




So S1 and S2 are the two 3-way switches, S3 and S4 are the single pole switches. The S1/S3 switch has a common hot, so the hot is on the input screw, and there is bus bar that connects the two switches. The wiring to the light on that first switch is just an interrupt of hot, and the neutral and ground are shared with the neutral and ground fed into that box. The same neutral and grou d that travels down the 12/3 to the other end of the 3-way. The S2/S4 switch has the bus bar for the non-traveler side broken. So how it works is that the two travelers are fed in on the 12/3, with the two hots going to the two traveler terminals of S2 and with their neutral and ground going on. To complete the circuit, a 12/2 wire connects the neutral and ground of the 12/3 to the load, and it connects to the side of the 3-way switch that doesn't connect the travelers. S4 then is a switch loop, isolated from S2 since the connection tab was broken off.

So the loads on S3 and S4 independently work fine. The load on S1/S2 only woks when both switches (identical) are in the left position.

When in the left position on both switches, either switch could be toggled to the right, and the circuit would go off. The issue arises that if one is set to the right so it powers down the circuit, toggling the opposite switch right does not re-energize the circuit as I would expect.

I suppose I could kill power to the whole circuit, and check continuity with the switch in both positions between the wires as screwed onto the switch.

 

[The_Jeff]

I'm still puzzled by how S4 continues to work with what from my armchair looks like inconsistent power coming in.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
I'm still puzzled by how S4 continues to work with what from my armchair looks like inconsistent power coming in.


Because S4 is a switch loop. The power that it switches comes from the same circuit further back, but needed to be constantly hot, not hot at the whim of if S2 is on or not. THus it is a standard switch loop. 12/2 romex goes into the fixture, the hot to the switch is fed on the switch loop romex as the white wire painted black with electrical tape. The other side of the switch gets the black wire from the 12/2 romex, which is then hot only when the switch is set to on, and that black wire connects to the hot terminal on the load. Neutral and ground are fed to the fixture from the first 12/2 romex mentioned.

Further back up the line the feeder to all of the lights comes from the same point, so that all electricity on the two switches can be shut off from a single breaker. But because the single switches needed to be operated independently of the three-way, and because the three way "hot in" is only connected on one end of the pair of three way switches, S4 needed to be able to switch a constantly hot lead independently.

 

[The_Jeff]

can you get a bar napkin and draw this whole thing out for us including S1 thru S4, the breaker, and all three lights?

 

[river_rat]

It appear to me that the independent single pole loads need to be returned directly to neutrals rather than allowing them to connect on their "cold" sides to the 3-way switches where they can interfere with the voltage on the traveller wires.

 

[cp3]

Do you have a second "line" feed to the switch that has the tab removed?

 

[cp3]

Originally Posted By: cp3
Do you have a second "line" feed to the switch that has the tab removed?


Ok, never mind. I read it all through and followed the diagram through again.

No I don't believe that the travelers need to be on matched terminals on the switch either. My next step would be to pull the switches and check for continuity at both positions, or at least the one that only works in one position. Very possible to get a bad switch these days.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
can you get a bar napkin and draw this whole thing out for us including S1 thru S4, the breaker, and all three lights?


This really is it:

Code:


N&G -------------------------------

| 3-way load

Source ----)-- S1========S2 -------

| S3 S4

| | ||

Load 1 Load 2 Sw hot





Ill try to draw it out later, but this is it. = or || indicates two wires. The source item could be considered the breaker.

 

[The_Jeff]

So is load 2 a floating hot kind of like a car power window? I think you need three, three way switches for that getup to work and you only have two. Can you put an outlet in temporarily to test the shebang with one of these guys?

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
can you get a bar napkin and draw this whole thing out for us including S1 thru S4, the breaker, and all three lights?


Try this.

The loads switched on S3 and S4 operate perfectly. No issues. The load on S3 shares the hot with the three-way switched load, but it is fed before the actual three-way switch. The load on S4 is just a branch off the same feeding line from all the way back, I just used a 12/2 romex as the switch loop for it, which is why that one leg is labeled wht/blk, to signify that I marked the white wire black to prevent confusion.

So in the first switch box (S1 and S3), it is fed with 12/2, which junctions to the switch itself (S1 and S3) on the hot, and for neutral and ground to a 12/3 for the three-way and to a 12/2 for the load on S3 (the hot lead in that 12/2 of course connects also to the S3).

In the second switch box, the 12/3 feeds into it with the two travelers going to S2. A 12/2 also comes in to connect to the other switched end on S2 and to the neutral and ground on the 12/3. S4 is not electrically connected to S2 in this case, and so is fed with a 12/2 that has the white lead marked black. The white lead connects to the 12/2 that is feeding that third fixture with hot, neutral and ground, thus it truncates the hot (black lead) on that wire. The 12/2 connected to S4 goes into the S4 as the wht/blk and then comes out on the black wire that connects to the fixture itself. Hope this helps...

 

[The_Jeff]

aha, you do have power in the basement for S4. Was thinking if you didn't you could run a third three way using the travellers for power, knowing that one of them always had it.

IOW my theory was you had the basement multi-switch in upside down with a three way working as a perfectly good standalone.

Am going with the dud switch theory now.

 

[JHZR2]

Am I best off checking continuity between ends and travelers, or voltage?

I figure I shod verify continuity just on the travelers themselves first, then from terminal to terminal on each switch, and then further out on the circuit.

If something as simple as a switch is DOA, that's really sad.

Or I wonder if when ripping off the connector for s2/s4 if I damaged it. Thing is, that connection is on the wrong side of the 3-way it seems to me, to be broken. Seems to me that the moving connector would be on the side with two terminals. So if I broke off the tab on the hot side the two terminals should still be untouched.

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Am going with the dud switch theory now.

Me too.