After some reading, I found that the Mopar MO-090 filter that I am using does not have a silicone anti-drainback valve; is this a concern or should I just stick with the Mopar? I have never had any noise with it. It is not exactly the cheapest filter however so is there a better option with a sadv that is priced lower than the Mopar? I can't remember exactly but I think someone mentioned an over-sized Wix filter for the 4.0s that has an sadv...
Three V8s and an I6...what oil(s)?
- Thread starter TXCarGeek
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Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
1999 Jeep Wrangler 4.0 ~97,500 miles
My parents have owned this one since new; oil changes every 5,000 give or take maybe a thousand miles. I can't recall what my father used when it was younger but ever since I have been keeping tabs on maintenance, my dad and I have been using M1 Syn 10W-30 switching between HM and the regular M1 syn. These past two oil changes however, I decided to change it up. First used was M1 AFE 0W-30; it ran fine on this but the low zinc levels concerned me because from what I understand, the 4.0s need higher zinc levels. This past oil change, I went with M1 HM 5W-30; no issues. Most of those miles are city miles with the occasional two hour trip to the beach/random trip on the highway although the past 10,000 miles were predominantly highway miles put on by me. The Jeep will stay in the family; my parents and I plan on keeping it indefinitely. After reading about how awesome GC is, I have been considering it or M1 0W-40. I know these engines can probably run on olive oil because they're so stout but I like synthetics so I won't go to a dino on any application.
[
I would want at least a "thick 30" in the Jeep. QS Defy 10w30, Rotella 10w30 would be good, higher ZDDP examples that have proven themselves in the 4.0. I really like PYB in the 4.0 as well, the sky high moly seems to make up for the average ZDDP and they run really quiet on it. The GC should be a good choice as well. The Mobil 1 0w40 was tried by another Jeeper here and he got a sky high iron UOA just like most of the Mobil 1 oils in the 4.0. Since there are so many other good choices I'd just avoid M1 in the Jeep 4.0. While it is not high in ZDDP (and I'm not convinced a broken in 4.0 needs higher ZDDP anyway) Valvoline has also consistently returned very good looking UOA's in the Jeep 4.0.
+1 what KCJeep said.
Living in Texas, I highly doubt you will see any benefit running a 0wXX oil in your 4.0L. I ran a 5w30 in my 4.0L and actually saw some shearing in my UOA during the winter. That is probably the reason a 10w30 is recommended for them from the factory.
If you lived in Canada, a 0w30 might be worthwhile during subzero winter months, otherwise you'd do better with a 10w30 or 10w40. I highly recommend Pennzoil Yellow Bottle 10w30 or 10w40 in the 4.0L. It is the quietest oil I have run in both my 4.0L and my buddy's 4.0L Cherokee. If you want a synthetic, I recommend Rotella 5w40.
Contrary to popular belief, the 4.0L DOES NOT need high ZDDP oils. That theory is only partly true. Some flat tappet cams do need high ZDDP, but only those with high valve spring pressures. The 4.0 has very weak valve springs, and besides break-in on a new engine, or a stroker with an aggressive cam, the motor will run just fine on regular passenger car oil.
I'd also avoid Mobil 1 in the 4.0L. The 4.0L tends to have higher iron wear numbers than most engines. The belief is that a majority of this iron comes from the timing chain, but that has yet to be determined. Some of the 4.0 UOAs with the highest iron wear I've seen have been with Mobil 1. I used Mobil 1 10w30 high mileage in my own Jeep and it consumed a full quart in 3,000 miles. It never consumed oil on other brands and still doesn't to this day. Its just not worth the higher price in my opinion. Stick with Pennzoil Yellow Bottle or Rotella and that engine will outlast the body.
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
1999 Jeep Wrangler 4.0 ~97,500 miles
My parents have owned this one since new; oil changes every 5,000 give or take maybe a thousand miles. I can't recall what my father used when it was younger but ever since I have been keeping tabs on maintenance, my dad and I have been using M1 Syn 10W-30 switching between HM and the regular M1 syn. These past two oil changes however, I decided to change it up. First used was M1 AFE 0W-30; it ran fine on this but the low zinc levels concerned me because from what I understand, the 4.0s need higher zinc levels. This past oil change, I went with M1 HM 5W-30; no issues. Most of those miles are city miles with the occasional two hour trip to the beach/random trip on the highway although the past 10,000 miles were predominantly highway miles put on by me. The Jeep will stay in the family; my parents and I plan on keeping it indefinitely. After reading about how awesome GC is, I have been considering it or M1 0W-40. I know these engines can probably run on olive oil because they're so stout but I like synthetics so I won't go to a dino on any application.
[
I would want at least a "thick 30" in the Jeep. QS Defy 10w30, Rotella 10w30 would be good, higher ZDDP examples that have proven themselves in the 4.0. I really like PYB in the 4.0 as well, the sky high moly seems to make up for the average ZDDP and they run really quiet on it. The GC should be a good choice as well. The Mobil 1 0w40 was tried by another Jeeper here and he got a sky high iron UOA just like most of the Mobil 1 oils in the 4.0. Since there are so many other good choices I'd just avoid M1 in the Jeep 4.0. While it is not high in ZDDP (and I'm not convinced a broken in 4.0 needs higher ZDDP anyway) Valvoline has also consistently returned very good looking UOA's in the Jeep 4.0.
+1 what KCJeep said.
Living in Texas, I highly doubt you will see any benefit running a 0wXX oil in your 4.0L. I ran a 5w30 in my 4.0L and actually saw some shearing in my UOA during the winter. That is probably the reason a 10w30 is recommended for them from the factory.
If you lived in Canada, a 0w30 might be worthwhile during subzero winter months, otherwise you'd do better with a 10w30 or 10w40. I highly recommend Pennzoil Yellow Bottle 10w30 or 10w40 in the 4.0L. It is the quietest oil I have run in both my 4.0L and my buddy's 4.0L Cherokee. If you want a synthetic, I recommend Rotella 5w40.
Contrary to popular belief, the 4.0L DOES NOT need high ZDDP oils. That theory is only partly true. Some flat tappet cams do need high ZDDP, but only those with high valve spring pressures. The 4.0 has very weak valve springs, and besides break-in on a new engine, or a stroker with an aggressive cam, the motor will run just fine on regular passenger car oil.
I'd also avoid Mobil 1 in the 4.0L. The 4.0L tends to have higher iron wear numbers than most engines. The belief is that a majority of this iron comes from the timing chain, but that has yet to be determined. Some of the 4.0 UOAs with the highest iron wear I've seen have been with Mobil 1. I used Mobil 1 10w30 high mileage in my own Jeep and it consumed a full quart in 3,000 miles. It never consumed oil on other brands and still doesn't to this day. Its just not worth the higher price in my opinion. Stick with Pennzoil Yellow Bottle or Rotella and that engine will outlast the body.
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
After some reading, I found that the Mopar MO-090 filter that I am using does not have a silicone anti-drainback valve; is this a concern or should I just stick with the Mopar? I have never had any noise with it. It is not exactly the cheapest filter however so is there a better option with a sadv that is priced lower than the Mopar? I can't remember exactly but I think someone mentioned an over-sized Wix filter for the 4.0s that has an sadv...
If you're not having start up issues there is certainly absolutely nothing wrong with the Mopar. They do cost a bit more. My favorite alternative is Motorcraft "S" series filters but they don't have a direct "spec" cross in Motorcraft that is easy to find ( I think it's supposed to be the FL-300 but they are rare birds indeed).
Wix makes a sturdy filter no doubt but you're hardly saving anything over the Mopar and I'd bet money you are more likely to have start up noise with the Wix than the Mopar. The best "non spec cross" for the Mopar is the Motorcraft FL-400S IMO. It has about the same capacity and a thread end bypass like the Mopar, but you add a silicone ADBV and shave several dollars off the price to boot, they are 4 bucks everywhere. Totally different looking can shape and size, but threads, gaskets, bypass is all essentially the same.
After some reading, I found that the Mopar MO-090 filter that I am using does not have a silicone anti-drainback valve; is this a concern or should I just stick with the Mopar? I have never had any noise with it. It is not exactly the cheapest filter however so is there a better option with a sadv that is priced lower than the Mopar? I can't remember exactly but I think someone mentioned an over-sized Wix filter for the 4.0s that has an sadv...
If you're not having start up issues there is certainly absolutely nothing wrong with the Mopar. They do cost a bit more. My favorite alternative is Motorcraft "S" series filters but they don't have a direct "spec" cross in Motorcraft that is easy to find ( I think it's supposed to be the FL-300 but they are rare birds indeed).
Wix makes a sturdy filter no doubt but you're hardly saving anything over the Mopar and I'd bet money you are more likely to have start up noise with the Wix than the Mopar. The best "non spec cross" for the Mopar is the Motorcraft FL-400S IMO. It has about the same capacity and a thread end bypass like the Mopar, but you add a silicone ADBV and shave several dollars off the price to boot, they are 4 bucks everywhere. Totally different looking can shape and size, but threads, gaskets, bypass is all essentially the same.
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
1999 Jeep Wrangler 4.0 ~97,500 miles
My parents have owned this one since new; oil changes every 5,000 give or take maybe a thousand miles. I can't recall what my father used when it was younger but ever since I have been keeping tabs on maintenance, my dad and I have been using M1 Syn 10W-30 switching between HM and the regular M1 syn. These past two oil changes however, I decided to change it up. First used was M1 AFE 0W-30; it ran fine on this but the low zinc levels concerned me because from what I understand, the 4.0s need higher zinc levels. This past oil change, I went with M1 HM 5W-30; no issues. Most of those miles are city miles with the occasional two hour trip to the beach/random trip on the highway although the past 10,000 miles were predominantly highway miles put on by me. The Jeep will stay in the family; my parents and I plan on keeping it indefinitely. After reading about how awesome GC is, I have been considering it or M1 0W-40. I know these engines can probably run on olive oil because they're so stout but I like synthetics so I won't go to a dino on any application.
[
I would want at least a "thick 30" in the Jeep. QS Defy 10w30, Rotella 10w30 would be good, higher ZDDP examples that have proven themselves in the 4.0. I really like PYB in the 4.0 as well, the sky high moly seems to make up for the average ZDDP and they run really quiet on it. The GC should be a good choice as well. The Mobil 1 0w40 was tried by another Jeeper here and he got a sky high iron UOA just like most of the Mobil 1 oils in the 4.0. Since there are so many other good choices I'd just avoid M1 in the Jeep 4.0. While it is not high in ZDDP (and I'm not convinced a broken in 4.0 needs higher ZDDP anyway) Valvoline has also consistently returned very good looking UOA's in the Jeep 4.0.
+1 what KCJeep said.
Living in Texas, I highly doubt you will see any benefit running a 0wXX oil in your 4.0L. I ran a 5w30 in my 4.0L and actually saw some shearing in my UOA during the winter. That is probably the reason a 10w30 is recommended for them from the factory.
If you lived in Canada, a 0w30 might be worthwhile during subzero winter months, otherwise you'd do better with a 10w30 or 10w40. I highly recommend Pennzoil Yellow Bottle 10w30 or 10w40 in the 4.0L. It is the quietest oil I have run in both my 4.0L and my buddy's 4.0L Cherokee. If you want a synthetic, I recommend Rotella 5w40.
Contrary to popular belief, the 4.0L DOES NOT need high ZDDP oils. That theory is only partly true. Some flat tappet cams do need high ZDDP, but only those with high valve spring pressures. The 4.0 has very weak valve springs, and besides break-in on a new engine, or a stroker with an aggressive cam, the motor will run just fine on regular passenger car oil.
I'd also avoid Mobil 1 in the 4.0L. The 4.0L tends to have higher iron wear numbers than most engines. The belief is that a majority of this iron comes from the timing chain, but that has yet to be determined. Some of the 4.0 UOAs with the highest iron wear I've seen have been with Mobil 1. I used Mobil 1 10w30 high mileage in my own Jeep and it consumed a full quart in 3,000 miles. It never consumed oil on other brands and still doesn't to this day. Its just not worth the higher price in my opinion. Stick with Pennzoil Yellow Bottle or Rotella and that engine will outlast the body.
I'm a bit confused. How would a 5W-30 or 0W-30 oil shear but a 10W-30 oil not? Are they not all the same viscosity at operating temperature? From reading the Oil 101 article on the home page of the BITOG, I was drawn to the conclusion that running an "0W-xx" oil regardless of the climate did not matter.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
1999 Jeep Wrangler 4.0 ~97,500 miles
My parents have owned this one since new; oil changes every 5,000 give or take maybe a thousand miles. I can't recall what my father used when it was younger but ever since I have been keeping tabs on maintenance, my dad and I have been using M1 Syn 10W-30 switching between HM and the regular M1 syn. These past two oil changes however, I decided to change it up. First used was M1 AFE 0W-30; it ran fine on this but the low zinc levels concerned me because from what I understand, the 4.0s need higher zinc levels. This past oil change, I went with M1 HM 5W-30; no issues. Most of those miles are city miles with the occasional two hour trip to the beach/random trip on the highway although the past 10,000 miles were predominantly highway miles put on by me. The Jeep will stay in the family; my parents and I plan on keeping it indefinitely. After reading about how awesome GC is, I have been considering it or M1 0W-40. I know these engines can probably run on olive oil because they're so stout but I like synthetics so I won't go to a dino on any application.
[
I would want at least a "thick 30" in the Jeep. QS Defy 10w30, Rotella 10w30 would be good, higher ZDDP examples that have proven themselves in the 4.0. I really like PYB in the 4.0 as well, the sky high moly seems to make up for the average ZDDP and they run really quiet on it. The GC should be a good choice as well. The Mobil 1 0w40 was tried by another Jeeper here and he got a sky high iron UOA just like most of the Mobil 1 oils in the 4.0. Since there are so many other good choices I'd just avoid M1 in the Jeep 4.0. While it is not high in ZDDP (and I'm not convinced a broken in 4.0 needs higher ZDDP anyway) Valvoline has also consistently returned very good looking UOA's in the Jeep 4.0.
+1 what KCJeep said.
Living in Texas, I highly doubt you will see any benefit running a 0wXX oil in your 4.0L. I ran a 5w30 in my 4.0L and actually saw some shearing in my UOA during the winter. That is probably the reason a 10w30 is recommended for them from the factory.
If you lived in Canada, a 0w30 might be worthwhile during subzero winter months, otherwise you'd do better with a 10w30 or 10w40. I highly recommend Pennzoil Yellow Bottle 10w30 or 10w40 in the 4.0L. It is the quietest oil I have run in both my 4.0L and my buddy's 4.0L Cherokee. If you want a synthetic, I recommend Rotella 5w40.
Contrary to popular belief, the 4.0L DOES NOT need high ZDDP oils. That theory is only partly true. Some flat tappet cams do need high ZDDP, but only those with high valve spring pressures. The 4.0 has very weak valve springs, and besides break-in on a new engine, or a stroker with an aggressive cam, the motor will run just fine on regular passenger car oil.
I'd also avoid Mobil 1 in the 4.0L. The 4.0L tends to have higher iron wear numbers than most engines. The belief is that a majority of this iron comes from the timing chain, but that has yet to be determined. Some of the 4.0 UOAs with the highest iron wear I've seen have been with Mobil 1. I used Mobil 1 10w30 high mileage in my own Jeep and it consumed a full quart in 3,000 miles. It never consumed oil on other brands and still doesn't to this day. Its just not worth the higher price in my opinion. Stick with Pennzoil Yellow Bottle or Rotella and that engine will outlast the body.
I'm a bit confused. How would a 5W-30 or 0W-30 oil shear but a 10W-30 oil not? Are they not all the same viscosity at operating temperature? From reading the Oil 101 article on the home page of the BITOG, I was drawn to the conclusion that running an "0W-xx" oil regardless of the climate did not matter.
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
I'm a bit confused. How would a 5W-30 or 0W-30 oil shear but a 10W-30 oil not? Are they not all the same viscosity at operating temperature? From reading the Oil 101 article on the home page of the BITOG, I was drawn to the conclusion that running an "0W-xx" oil regardless of the climate did not matter.
Some would say that a 10w30 doesn't rely on many VIIs whereas a 0w30 or 5w30 would, and that VIIs make an oil more shear-prone. However, that is simply not true with most modern oils.
I'm a bit confused. How would a 5W-30 or 0W-30 oil shear but a 10W-30 oil not? Are they not all the same viscosity at operating temperature? From reading the Oil 101 article on the home page of the BITOG, I was drawn to the conclusion that running an "0W-xx" oil regardless of the climate did not matter.
Some would say that a 10w30 doesn't rely on many VIIs whereas a 0w30 or 5w30 would, and that VIIs make an oil more shear-prone. However, that is simply not true with most modern oils.
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
I'm a bit confused. How would a 5W-30 or 0W-30 oil shear but a 10W-30 oil not? Are they not all the same viscosity at operating temperature? From reading the Oil 101 article on the home page of the BITOG, I was drawn to the conclusion that running an "0W-xx" oil regardless of the climate did not matter.
Some would say that a 10w30 doesn't rely on many VIIs whereas a 0w30 or 5w30 would, and that VIIs make an oil more shear-prone. However, that is simply not true with most modern oils.
Agreed. Most quality synthetics don't suffer permanent shear as they once did,so yes a 10w-30 is less prone to shear,however top quality oils of today just don't suffer permanent shear as they may once have.
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
I'm a bit confused. How would a 5W-30 or 0W-30 oil shear but a 10W-30 oil not? Are they not all the same viscosity at operating temperature? From reading the Oil 101 article on the home page of the BITOG, I was drawn to the conclusion that running an "0W-xx" oil regardless of the climate did not matter.
Some would say that a 10w30 doesn't rely on many VIIs whereas a 0w30 or 5w30 would, and that VIIs make an oil more shear-prone. However, that is simply not true with most modern oils.
Agreed. Most quality synthetics don't suffer permanent shear as they once did,so yes a 10w-30 is less prone to shear,however top quality oils of today just don't suffer permanent shear as they may once have.
Both Jeepman3071 and I did UOA's on 5w30's in the Jeep 4.0. Mine sheared clear down to a 20 grade and his was barely still a 30, neither is a very good scenario for the old 4.0.
A 10w30 has a lower VI in general and therefore tends to shear less. Probably why the old 4.0 is actually spec'd for a 10w30 long after 5w30's were the standard.
But a good synthetic is another story. Castrol 0w30 is one of the most shear resistant oils I've seen.
A 10w30 has a lower VI in general and therefore tends to shear less. Probably why the old 4.0 is actually spec'd for a 10w30 long after 5w30's were the standard.
But a good synthetic is another story. Castrol 0w30 is one of the most shear resistant oils I've seen.
I love the info gentlemen; all very informative and helpful.
As it stands now, this is what is on my (open) mind:
Wrangler 4.0 - undecided at this point but it seems like M1 anything isn't a good choice for this engine; sort of like the idea of GC in there so if I can find it, I'll give it a try.
Excursion 5.4 - M1 AFE 0W-30
550i - M1 0W-40 or GC if I can get my hands on it. If end up having it changed at my indy, it'll be BMW 5W-30.
Genesis 5.0 - M1 AFE 0W-20
Being that I live in a smaller town without big city freeway driving, there is a lot of stop and go driving with all the traffic lights in town; will these oils hold up well to this? The Excursion and Jeep I have always ran a 5,000 mile OCI on them although I will go over at times depending on whether or not there is time to work on the vehicle (which is why I like a synthetic...it affords me some wiggle room in my OCI). The 550i and the Genesis will be on about a 7500 OCI although I am willing to adjust those according to how they are used; these two will likely see more of a mix of city/hwy driving than the other two will so that is why I set a higher OCI.
As it stands now, this is what is on my (open) mind:
Wrangler 4.0 - undecided at this point but it seems like M1 anything isn't a good choice for this engine; sort of like the idea of GC in there so if I can find it, I'll give it a try.
Excursion 5.4 - M1 AFE 0W-30
550i - M1 0W-40 or GC if I can get my hands on it. If end up having it changed at my indy, it'll be BMW 5W-30.
Genesis 5.0 - M1 AFE 0W-20
Being that I live in a smaller town without big city freeway driving, there is a lot of stop and go driving with all the traffic lights in town; will these oils hold up well to this? The Excursion and Jeep I have always ran a 5,000 mile OCI on them although I will go over at times depending on whether or not there is time to work on the vehicle (which is why I like a synthetic...it affords me some wiggle room in my OCI). The 550i and the Genesis will be on about a 7500 OCI although I am willing to adjust those according to how they are used; these two will likely see more of a mix of city/hwy driving than the other two will so that is why I set a higher OCI.
Hi TXGC,
-For the Jeep, the M1 HM 5W-30 your using now is fine.
-For the Excursion, any 5W-30 or a 5W-30 syn bought on sale.
-For the BMW, either GC or M1 0W-40, which ever is cheapest which is likely M1 at WalMart.
-For the Hyundai, any 5W-30 or a 5W-20 syn' such as PP bought on sale.
-For the Jeep, the M1 HM 5W-30 your using now is fine.
-For the Excursion, any 5W-30 or a 5W-30 syn bought on sale.
-For the BMW, either GC or M1 0W-40, which ever is cheapest which is likely M1 at WalMart.
-For the Hyundai, any 5W-30 or a 5W-20 syn' such as PP bought on sale.
The M1 0W-30 for the Excursion and M1 0W-20 for the Hyundai are good choices as well.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The M1 0W-30 for the Excursion and M1 0W-20 for the Hyundai are good choices as well.
Wouldn't hurt to run these year round right? We will see triple digit temperatures throughout the summer so I guess the "0W" part of the whole thing wouldn't make that big of a difference in the heat...?
Going off of that, should I run the 30 weight in the summer on the Genesis or stick with the 20 weight year round?
The M1 0W-30 for the Excursion and M1 0W-20 for the Hyundai are good choices as well.
Wouldn't hurt to run these year round right? We will see triple digit temperatures throughout the summer so I guess the "0W" part of the whole thing wouldn't make that big of a difference in the heat...?
Going off of that, should I run the 30 weight in the summer on the Genesis or stick with the 20 weight year round?
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Actually the 0W part of M1 AFE oils means they are especially high quality oils (are formulated at least in part with PAO base oils).
M1 0W-20 is a heavier than average 20wt oil and is probabily as robust as a typical 5W-30 dino in extreme heat; so no worries.
M1 0W-20 is a heavier than average 20wt oil and is probabily as robust as a typical 5W-30 dino in extreme heat; so no worries.
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
I gotcha. I really like the idea of running "0W-xx" oils in my vehicles. Most of the ones you recommend for the Jeep are "10W-xx." Is there anything "0W-xx" wise that have given good UOAs in the Jeeps?
I can back up KC's "4.0 high iron with M1" as I've done a UOA showing it to be true.
For a 0w30, I have been using Amsoil for more than a couple years in our 4.0 with great results. FWIW, got similar results with 5w30 in both VWB and ST Syn so those two might be a good and less expensive option. My test intervals were 5000 miles, with over 70% highway miles.
I gotcha. I really like the idea of running "0W-xx" oils in my vehicles. Most of the ones you recommend for the Jeep are "10W-xx." Is there anything "0W-xx" wise that have given good UOAs in the Jeeps?
I can back up KC's "4.0 high iron with M1" as I've done a UOA showing it to be true.
For a 0w30, I have been using Amsoil for more than a couple years in our 4.0 with great results. FWIW, got similar results with 5w30 in both VWB and ST Syn so those two might be a good and less expensive option. My test intervals were 5000 miles, with over 70% highway miles.
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
Have UOAs reported high iron levels in 4.0s using HM M1s as well?
The UOAs I'm sure of used either "regular" M1 5w30, or the 0w30 energy conserving version; I don't recall seeing one done with the high mileage oils, or Mobil Super 5000 either.
Have UOAs reported high iron levels in 4.0s using HM M1s as well?
The UOAs I'm sure of used either "regular" M1 5w30, or the 0w30 energy conserving version; I don't recall seeing one done with the high mileage oils, or Mobil Super 5000 either.
I know of one guy who used M1 High Mileage in a 4.0 and did a UOA, the iron was still a bit high but much better according to him then the other variations of M1. I did not get to see the actual UOA but that's what he said, FWIW.
So if I was going to try M1 in a 4.0 I'd definitely lean towards the HM variant, I like HM oils anyway.
So if I was going to try M1 in a 4.0 I'd definitely lean towards the HM variant, I like HM oils anyway.
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