Thoughts on HM oil messing with VTEC?

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Is the replacement solenoid you used a Honda-branded part or aftermarket?


OEM Honda bought at local dealership.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Brule
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Is the replacement solenoid you used a Honda-branded part or aftermarket?


OEM Honda bought at local dealership.


Darn! How much is this part?

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
What is different about this Honda as compared to million others on the road? Most of them use whatever oil corner mechanic has in his bulk tank. If the VTEC was that critical of specific oil, wouldn't you expect lot more of this problems?

Get a Honda specialist to chime in and give you the exact factory diagnostic chart for this particular code then start following it. I can almost see that Honda might tell you to check/replace the oil but there will be more steps in that flowchart and I am sure "put Kreen/MMO" in oil will NOT be there!

When you followed that and still have the problem, then go for Kreen but not before.


Many Si and RSX owners of this engine have switched from the spec'ed 5w20 to 5w30 because of cam galling. Many are convinced 5w20 was an incorrect recommendation due only to CAFE. P1259 is probably the most common code complaint at the two Civic Si EP3 sites I go to. It sometimes shows up by just running the oil low. I already own the factory manual and have tried most of the solutions for the p1259 code [still have to check continuity in the ECM to have most bases covered.]

All of the VTEC-specific stuff I didn't intend to get into in this thread. I just posted the oil question here because it does come into play as far as VTEC and the people on this board are more in tune to oil issues. And I agree, an oil additive would be my last resort, though

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Brule
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Is the replacement solenoid you used a Honda-branded part or aftermarket?


OEM Honda bought at local dealership.


Darn! How much is this part?

Valve Assembly, Spool [VTC]: $125

Not bad if it has to be replaced every 194,000 miles.

Bad if it has to be replaced after just 8,000 miles.

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Here we go...and here I go, good luck guys!


Bye then.

Close the door on the way out, thanks.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Brule
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Brule
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Is the replacement solenoid you used a Honda-branded part or aftermarket?


OEM Honda bought at local dealership.


Darn! How much is this part?

Valve Assembly, Spool [VTC]: $125

Not bad if it has to be replaced every 194,000 miles.

Bad if it has to be replaced after just 8,000 miles.


Do you feel it is possible that this part has again failed?

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Do you feel it is possible that this part has again failed?


No, due to the way the CEL is coming on. Like I mentioned before the previous CEL came on anytime I reached 4K rpms or usually less than 5 miles after driving. This time I can get into the VTEC, rev to redline with no problem until the CEL comes on. And that time is getting longer now 16...18...now 60 miles. Again, this could be coincidence, but the fact I can rev over 4K until the CEL comes on tells me it's a different problem.

 

[LeakySeals]

Hopefully your getting cleaner, and any obstruction/deposits in the arteries of the vtec oil gallies, controller, and OCV are diminishing. Thats how it went for me on the 2 Toyotas with the Toyota equivalent of your problem (P1349). The system is a tight space. Not a whole lot of flow or circulation, so you will wait a long long time for oil alone to resolve this, if ever. I resorted to pushing it along with Kreen for one, MMO for the other. The last 1k-1500 of an OCI. I would also be wondering about other things like oil pump pickup screen, etc. Sounds like your headed in the right direction though.

Also the best cleaner oil I've ever used is Mobil 1 High Mileage. Why its performs so well at cleaning I'm not sure, but it does.

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Hopefully your getting cleaner, and any obstruction/deposits in the arteries of the vtec oil gallies, controller, and OCV are diminishing. Thats how it went for me on the 2 Toyotas with the Toyota equivalent of your problem (P1349). The system is a tight space. Not a whole lot of flow or circulation, so you will wait a long long time for oil alone to resolve this, if ever. I resorted to pushing it along with Kreen for one, MMO for the other. The last 1k-1500 of an OCI. I would also be wondering about other things like oil pump pickup screen, etc. Sounds like your headed in the right direction though.

Also the best cleaner oil I've ever used is Mobil 1 High Mileage. Why its performs so well at cleaning I'm not sure, but it does.


Changed oil once again, this time to Mobil 1 0w30. [I know it sounds like I'm wasting oil, but the TropArtic only cost me about $11 with tax.] Put a lot of miles on the car today and again thought problem was solved; and at 99 miles: CEL!!!

16...18...25...60...99 miles. Now it's looking less of a coincidence and pointing towards some kind of blockage that's improving. Tomorrow I have some free time so I'm gonna take off the VTEC Solenoid and Oil pressure switch and clean them once again. The solenoid I can further break down and clean inside instead of just the filter screen. Also will take a look under the valve cover.

 

[LeakySeals]

Yeah, its going to take forever and cost a small fortune to clean with straight oil no add help. Not much oil flow in a very small cramped area. If you take that route, Mobil 1 High Mileage works faster than the regular M1 brands. Maybe a combination of M1 Full Synthetic with "extra" cleaner additives. See product description. http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAXXENPVLMOMobil_1_High_Mileage_Oil.aspx Changed the GP to PU last night to see if it actually cleans better than PP which was avg at best.

If your going to open things up I would have a look at your oil pump pickup screen. that may need to be cleaned off or replaced. When you have the VC open, if there's a way to open the controller/actuators/cam gear you can manually clean them. I've also looked for an opening and blast some TB or carb leaner up inside the actuator to push things along. Sometimes a blockage up there can appear as a blockage at the OCV.

Also, what filter are you using again? High efficiency filters can cause this, impeding flow at higher revs. High efficiency filters can sometimes cause more harm than good during cleanups.

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Yeah, its going to take forever and cost a small fortune to clean with straight oil no add help. Not much oil flow in a very small cramped area. If you take that route, Mobil 1 High Mileage works faster than the regular Mobil 1 brands. Maybe a combination of Mobil 1 Full Synthetic with "extra" cleaner additives. See product description. http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAXXENPVLMOMobil_1_High_Mileage_Oil.aspx Changed the GP to PU last night to see if it actually cleans better than PP which was avg at best.

If your going to open things up I would have a look at your oil pump pickup screen. that may need to be cleaned off or replaced. When you have the VC open, if there's a way to open the controller/actuators/cam gear you can manually clean them. I've also looked for an opening and blast some TB or carb leaner up inside the actuator to push things along. Sometimes a blockage up there can appear as a blockage at the OCV.

Also, what filter are you using again? High efficiency filters can cause this, impeding flow at higher revs. High efficiency filters can sometimes cause more harm than good during cleanups.


Thanks for the information. I lean towards being anti-additives so I would only consider doing it as a last resort. I was considering PU because of the cleaning, but decided to go with Mobil 1 since I've used it before with no problems and wanted to return the engine to it's "familiar" state before proceeding. I'll keep Mobil 1 High Mileage in mind in the future also.

The filter I had on with the GTX HM was the OEM Honda which I've read is considered hi-flow, less filtration. I kept that one on when I put the TropArtic in. Yesterday when I switched to Mobil 1 0w30 I put a Mann ML1008 on. I believe that one is supposed to be slightly hi-flow as well.

I've already taken off the VTEC solenoid today and recleaned it and the screen filter. I'm going out right now to take the VC off.

 

[Brule]

Here's my VTEC solenoid valve assembly. You can see the filter screen that often gets clogged. The assembly looks new because it is only a few months old.

Additionally I took the valve cover off today and didn't find anything of note. No galling like others have reported. Has over 202K miles and the majority of OC's have been synthetic for 10K intervals [at least until recently]

 

[LeakySeals]

Did you say Castrol GTX? How long were you using that stuff? Although the engine looks good overall, its not an indication of deposits in the smaller remote areas unfortunately. The lower left is the controller. The tiny oil gallies are all in thet area. Through that controller, and out running through the cam itself. If you can get TB or carb cleaner with the red spray tube attached in any hole or crack around there let it rip. You may get lucky and be able to loosen the 3-4 controller access bolts on the cap a bit to get some spray in there. But be really careful, don't open it very much. Loaded with springs, pins, etc.

 

[LeakySeals]

Everything else you mentioned sounds good to me. The pickup screen is the next place I'd go if this doesn't go away. At the next oil change of course, no sense in dumping the oil at this point.

 

[dparm]

I had an Integra GS-R and an S2000. Neither car was picky about its oil.

I did get a similar problem to yours once on the Integra. Removed the solenoid, cleaned it, and the problem came back, so I just replaced it and the problem went away. That was probably the only issue I ever had with the car, truthfully.

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Did you say Castrol GTX? How long were you using that stuff? Although the engine looks good overall, its not an indication of deposits in the smaller remote areas unfortunately. The lower left is the controller. The tiny oil gallies are all in thet area. Through that controller, and out running through the cam itself. If you can get TB or carb cleaner with the red spray tube attached in any hole or crack around there let it rip. You may get lucky and be able to loosen the 3-4 controller access bolts on the cap a bit to get some spray in there. But be really careful, don't open it very much. Loaded with springs, pins, etc.


Yes, Castrol GTX High Mileage 5w20. The first time I tried it was at 193,499 miles. The original CEL then came on at 193,880 miles [381 miles later]. Replaced VTEC Solenoid Valve Assembly and drove fine for about 8,000 miles.

Preset CEL: At 202,040 miles I put the same [new, not used] GTX HM 5w20 again [thinking I was doing the car a favor using thinner oil during the winter]. At 202,420 miles the CEL came on again. [380 miles later] HOLY %$@!...I never realized the mileage between the two events were that close!

As long as the time the CEL comes back keeps getting longer I'm not going to open the controller area up, but will keep that in mind in the future if things don't improve.

 

[dparm]

Just replace the solenoid. They're not expensive.

BTW if you were feeling particularly brave, you could wire in an LED to the solenoid (aka a "VTEC light") and see if the signal is intermittent. Or just run some long wires and check the voltage.

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Just replace the solenoid. They're not expensive.

BTW if you were feeling particularly brave, you could wire in an LED to the solenoid (aka a "VTEC light") and see if the signal is intermittent. Or just run some long wires and check the voltage.


Assuming this part is bad, it's $100 shipped/internet or $125 locally. Also I replaced it just 8,000 miles ago like previously stated. Plus there's no certainty this is the part causing the CEL.

 

[fdcg27]

I don't know what your problem is, but I don't think it's the oil.
I've run mostly the spec 5w30 in syn oils in my '99 Accord, but its also seen 10W-40 conventional (ran it to get rid of it) and Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W-50 for 10K on two summer runs (bought real cheap on clearance, wish I had saved it for the e36 that loved the stuff for the 6K I ran the last bit of it in the car).
I never had any VTEC problems with any grade of oil, so I don't think you have an oil problem.
High Mileage oils are not really loaded with seal swellers, so I don't think that's your problem.
Maxlife even meets API SN, so it could be used in the appropriate grade in any new car.
It ain't the oil, mon frere.

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I don't know what your problem is, but I don't think it's the oil.
I've run mostly the spec 5w30 in syn oils in my '99 Accord, but its also seen 10W-40 conventional (ran it to get rid of it) and Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W-50 for 10K on two summer runs (bought real cheap on clearance, wish I had saved it for the e36 that loved the stuff for the 6K I ran the last bit of it in the car).
I never had any VTEC problems with any grade of oil, so I don't think you have an oil problem.
High Mileage oils are not really loaded with seal swellers, so I don't think that's your problem.
Maxlife even meets API SN, so it could be used in the appropriate grade in any new car.
It ain't the oil, mon frere.


I don't think it's grade either or the swellers. Maybe GTX High Mileage with its "Superior detergency that fights deposit build up" is loosening whatever's deposited from years of 10K OCI's on whatever synthetic was on sale. It's just a theory and may be a coincidence that the same code was thrown 380 miles and 381 miles after putting GTX High Mileage oil in the 200k mile engine for the 1st time.

Anyway, tomorrow I'll be putting a lot of miles on it and I'll see if it gets past 99 miles this time.