Thoughts on HM oil messing with VTEC?

[Brule]

Short story: I have a P1259 CEL code on my '03 Civic Si which points to a VTEC malfunction. The two usual culprits, VTC Solenoid and VTEC Oil pressure switch both check out OK. I've tested, removed and cleaned both. Oil level was already topped off. Another suggestion I've read was to change oil. But oil is very new...Castrol High Mileage 5w20...and it is the recommended viscosity.

I may be grasping at straws here but am wondering if anyone has experienced or heard of High Mileage oils of any brand wreaking havoc with VTEC or other makes' equivalent: VVT-i, VANOS, etc. My theory is that the extra conditioners, swellers, or anti-wear additives don't react well inside the VTEC parts.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Clevy]

I don't think they are related. Maybe your car just doesn't like this particular oil. What was in it before?

 

[bepperb]

It's not that complex of a system. How do you know the pressure switch "tested out", did it test out via a digital multimeter or otherwise? If everything was cleaned (I've not had your particular Honda but...) including the screen behind the solenoid I would think either one of those two items is bad. There could also be an obstruction further down the line, how new is this car to you?

I would find it hard to believe it's the oil unless it happens only when the engine is at full temp. In the first few minutes the oil is cold, thick, and should be getting sufficient pressure regardless of weight.

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
I don't think they are related. Maybe your car just doesn't like this particular oil. What was in it before?


That's the odd part...this car is not picky about oil. I've used Mobil 1 [regular and EP] mainly, O'Reilly synthetic, TropArtic blend, German Castrol, and Valvoline Synpower. This is the first time I've used a High Mileage oil though. I know...it's grasping at straws.

It calls for 5w20, but I've used 5w30 with no problem as well.

 

[LeakySeals]

The only parts that would react to seal swellers and conditioners in the engine would be rubber seals and gaskets. Other than that, its an oil that's maybe a little thicker, maybe a little more zzdp which would help, not hurt the vast majority of parts which are metal.

If it were a Toyota I'd say you clogged the vvt-i filter screen before the Oil control valve during a sludge cleanup with the high detergent levels of High Mileage oil. Related is plugged filter or oil pickup screen. Maybe that can relate to the newer variable valve vtecs, not sure.

 

[Lead Shoes]

I have never had Vtec hate an oil, but I have had it pop harder on various brands and weight because its oil pressure based.

I would put money on it that the vtec solenoid screen is clogged up with broken off deposits, the vtec design will not fail with seal swelling, there is only one seal really, and its the one the screen is attached to.

Write ups with pics on how to clean/replace the screen:
****They are not k20's but the process should be nearly identical to these****

http://www.hondaprelude.to/forums/showthread.php?94955-Changing-your-vtec-solenoid-gasket
http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=719558

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
It's not that complex of a system. How do you know the pressure switch "tested out", did it test out via a digital multimeter or otherwise? If everything was cleaned (I've not had your particular Honda but...) including the screen behind the solenoid I would think either one of those two items is bad. There could also be an obstruction further down the line, how new is this car to you?

I would find it hard to believe it's the oil unless it happens only when the engine is at full temp. In the first few minutes the oil is cold, thick, and should be getting sufficient pressure regardless of weight.


VTEC solenoid is supposed to be 14-30 ohms and ohmmeter read 18 ohms. The Oil Pressure switch test is to remove and just apply voltage, which I did, and I saw it open and close.

But now you've got me thinking. I have cleared the ECM in the past 2 days to remove the CEL. Yesterday it took 16 miles and today 18 miles to get the CEL to come back. So oil pressure looks like a possibility.

But what doesn't make sense is that Castrol GTX HM 5w20 is thicker than all of the other regular 5w20's I've used with no problems over the past 80K miles.

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
The only parts that would react to seal swellers and conditioners in the engine would be rubber seals and gaskets. Other than that, its an oil that's maybe a little thicker, maybe a little more zzdp which would help, not hurt the vast majority of parts which are metal.

If it were a Toyota I'd say you clogged the vvt-i controller screen during a sludge cleanup with High Mileage oil. maybe that related to the newer variable valve vtecs, not sure.


Same with Honda VTEC. The first thing to do when you get the p1259 code is to check oil level (which was full), second is to remove VTEC solenoid screen and clean it. I have cleaned both parts and CEL comes back.

 

[LeakySeals]

Its probably a clogged or failed oil control valve. Take it out, try cleaning it with TB cleaner. A partially plugged oil filter did that to me once, sludge related issues. 1 pint of MMO is a good choice here. Thins and cleans, helps provide answers. Check your oil pressure also. Oil pressure problems will show up in small remote places like the OCV. And of course, if the High Mileage oil is way too thick that would effect oil flow to the OCV. Why the pint of MMO is a good choice to find that out.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Its probably a clogged or failed oil control valve. Take it out, try cleaning it with TB cleaner. A partially plugged oil filter did that to me once, sludge related issues. 1 pint of MMO is a good choice here. Thins and cleans, helps provide answers. Check your oil pressure also. Oil pressure problems will show up in small remote places like the OCV. And of course, if the High Mileage oil is way too thick that would effect oil flow to the OCV. Why the pint of MMO is a good choice to find that out.


This is from the Honda warranty terms, but the actual handbook also forms a part of the warranty terms as regards servicing and I presume that says don't use oil additives.

9. A QUESTION OF ADDITIVES.
Your Honda vehicle does not require any oil additives.
Oil additives may adversely affect your engine’s or
transmission’s performance and durability. Additionally,
your Honda does not require the use of rust inhibitors or
other additives in its cooling system. The use of these
products may not be compatible with the coolant or
engine components. The use of fuel additives, or fuel
injector cleaners is not part of the recommended
maintenance schedule and is not required.

 

[LeakySeals]

Will you please stop, trying to help the guy fix a problem!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Will you please stop? Trying to fix a problem here.


I actually agree with skyship here, I'm not a fan of additives. Fix the problem by replacing or repairing the defective part. Tossing "magic in a can" into the sump in hopes that it effects some sort of relief is not part of that process.

 

[LeakySeals]

Here we go...and here I go, good luck guys!

 

[Clevy]

Add the mmo. You've already checked the parts and they all work. If the oil is too thick(I doubt it) the mmo will thin it and the cleaning properties may help.
It will cross another possibility off the list anyways.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Add the mmo. You've already checked the parts and they all work. If the oil is too thick(I doubt it) the mmo will thin it and the cleaning properties may help.
It will cross another possibility off the list anyways.


If the OP has checked the two senders and connections then head for the nearest good garage or even dealer, because this could be serious.
Only a terminal addaholic would suggest trying to clear a potentially serious oil system warning with a can of snake oil designed for a tractor some farmer forgot to change the oil for.
The OP said the oil was newish, so I don't think that the oil is the problem unless the filter was not changed or something odd.

From Honda:
The P1259 (P1257, 58 and P1259) refer to Vtec System Malfunction. Oil pressure, or momentary pressure loss (low oil level) can cause this; as can a malfunctioning VTec control solenoid.

 

[Brule]

OK, I think the problem's fixed with all of your help, but it may be premature. I've already gone 25 miles with no CEL. Tonight I'm gonna put another 60 miles on the car and if CEL stays off I think we've solved this code.

 

[Brule]

Not fixed, but there is hope. I went almost exactly 60 miles and, thinking surely I was out of the woods, bam! CEL comes on again. What I had done was change the oil back to 5w30 TropArtic.

I did have this code before and replaced the VTEC solenoid 8000 miles ago. Back then every time I reset the ECM the CEL would come right back, esp. when hitting 4K rpms which is limp mode for this engine. So driving 60 miles, and revving over 4K numerous times is quite different than before. I don't think it's mechanical because of this and because of testing the parts. (It could be a short, but then the CEL taking longer to come back on would have to be a coincidence.)

Another difference besides the change to high mileage oil is the change to a synthetic blend, which the Castrol and TropArtic are. And to me that means they're mainly conventional. I have used gpIII synthetics like M1, O'Reilly, and Valvoline for the 1st 80K miles with zero drama (besides consumption) so maybe on this old engine that is what it needs. (Again, grasping at straws.)

I guess I'll give M1 a try or some other syn like Pennzoil Ultra, which many here claim is the best at cleaning. (Since it's possible something associated to VTEC could be clogged or semi-clogged).

 

[Vikas]

What is different about this Honda as compared to million others on the road? Most of them use whatever oil corner mechanic has in his bulk tank. If the VTEC was that critical of specific oil, wouldn't you expect lot more of this problems?

Get a Honda specialist to chime in and give you the exact factory diagnostic chart for this particular code then start following it. I can almost see that Honda might tell you to check/replace the oil but there will be more steps in that flowchart and I am sure "put Kreen/MMO" in oil will NOT be there!

When you followed that and still have the problem, then go for Kreen but not before.

 

[tiger862]

Put a manual gauge on engine and check oil pressure. What filter are you using? You can also try a Honda filter first if you don't want to invest in pressure gauge. It does sound like thou if screen is clean for vvt and all valves check out then low oil pressure is likely the cause.

 

[OVERKILL]

Is the replacement solenoid you used a Honda-branded part or aftermarket?