Thoughts on high volume oil pumps?

[BobsArmory]

Originally Posted By: ls1mike
So in summary to keep your marriage intact. Do a transmission service, pull the grill and put a bigger aux transmision cooler on. It will also save the truck.


Sounds like a plan! Thanks guys!

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Is everyone on here confusing high volume with high pressure, thinking that they are one and the same??

Melling lists TWO distinct oil pump options for LSx engines;

A high volume, but stock pressure unit,
AND a high pressure but stock volume unit.

Are they selling the same exact thing in two differently labelled boxes?

Oil pressure and volume are very closely related, but not the same. All the pump does is move oil. Oil pressure forms as a RESPONSE to the moving oil, due to the restrictions on where the oil can escape from the oiling system (bearing side clearances, lifters, rocker arms, piston squirters, timing chain sprayers, etc.)

An oil pump contains a pressure regulator, but that only sets the maximum oil pressure. At what RPM you reach that oil pressure is determined by the volume per turn of the oil pump and the leakage in the system. A stock oil pump may hit its maximum oil pressure at 4000 RPM, whereas a high-volume oil pump in the same engine might reach the same pressure at 2000 RPM. If you tow all day at 2500 RPM, then in that case a high volume pump might be of help, because it maintains the maximum flow through the system at the RPM where the engine works the hardest. On the other hand, if you tow at 3800 RPM, then the HV pump will just be wasting power.

"High pressure" oil pumps just have the pressure regulator set to a higher value. I see absolutely no use for them whatsoever.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SS1970chrysler
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
A HV pump makes no sense in a stock application unless the stock pump is a flawed design and the engine is known to have issues with the stock pump failing to provide adequate volume.


V8 Buicks come to mind. I had a HV pump on both my 350 and 430.

I'm currently using one of those old plates on my '77 350 "J". I've also had a need for them on late 70's-early 80's 302 and 351 engines.


I don't believe there was ever a time when a Windsor engine "needed" a high volume oil pump. All they often caused was power-robbing drag on the engine and licorice-sticked oil pump drive shafts. The Windsor is not an engine that suffered from oil system design problems. They did however seem to be prone to sludge and varnish if the PCV system was neglected or cheap oil was used, as I've seen many of them in that condition.


Good post. I've seen poor neglected 5.0s in trucks as well. Not many in mustangs though. Drivers of the mustangs seem to spin em a bit higher,for longer.
Op. I also thought long and hard about a hvop in my mustang. Unless a guy goes and makes all the oil galleys larger to allow more volume to pass at any given time all they really do is add pressure,not much volume,which in turn causes more drag,which in turn could twist and cause a failure.
I even went as far as to consider running thinner oil to lower the oil pressure to allow more volume and in order to make all of this work together it would take alot of effort just to enlarge everything to allow more oil volume.
No to mention more pressure will open the oil filters by-pass valve which then sends unfiltered oil through the system until the pressure drops again. Too many variables although the thought is a good one in theory,but in practice opens the door for far more problems trying to fix something that isn't a problem.
How many of these engines have oil related issues?

 

[morris]

dont for get the 1968 dodge hi performance 340. if you pushed oil to fast it would miss the turn to one of the main bearings. easily fixed with plugs and by pass hose. of course we are talking about spinning the engine much faster than stock. please for give me for showing my age.

 

[BobsArmory]

Originally Posted By: morris
dont for get the 1968 dodge hi performance 340. if you pushed oil to fast it would miss the turn to one of the main bearings. easily fixed with plugs and by pass hose. of course we are talking about spinning the engine much faster than stock. please for give me for showing my age.


Forgiven

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Oil pressure and volume are very closely related, but not the same. All the pump does is move oil. Oil pressure forms as a RESPONSE to the moving oil, due to the restrictions on where the oil can escape from the oiling system (bearing side clearances, lifters, rocker arms, piston squirters, timing chain sprayers, etc.)

An oil pump contains a pressure regulator, but that only sets the maximum oil pressure. At what RPM you reach that oil pressure is determined by the volume per turn of the oil pump and the leakage in the system. A stock oil pump may hit its maximum oil pressure at 4000 RPM, whereas a high-volume oil pump in the same engine might reach the same pressure at 2000 RPM. If you tow all day at 2500 RPM, then in that case a high volume pump might be of help, because it maintains the maximum flow through the system at the RPM where the engine works the hardest. On the other hand, if you tow at 3800 RPM, then the HV pump will just be wasting power.

"High pressure" oil pumps just have the pressure regulator set to a higher value. I see absolutely no use for them whatsoever.


Yeah, good summary...

The volume needs to get there, regardless of pressure.

the amount of oil that goes through the bypass, times the pressure drop is waste heat, and fuel that your engine turned into power, to waste jamming oil through the bypass.

 

[SteveSRT8]

LS1Mike gave great advice on the cooler. I really like the flat plate design that GM gives their trucks, and you can put them in series if you need to save dough.

As for HiVo/HiPo oil pumps I've used them a lot. They can be trouble free additions to any build, but they usually cause issues. I had a hot Mopar 318 I built that broke oil pump driveshafts, even the hardened ones, until I put the stock pump in it. Just one example.

The only engines with a real need for a Big Oil Pump are engines with oil squirters like the 6.1 in my car or custom motors with big clearances that can actually USE the pump appropriately.

 

[3311]

I would change the pump if it's out of warranty and I would use a Melling HV pump with the stock spring.

I just found the below notice on another forum(http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72458 ) . My failed LQ4 isn't on there and I'm still in the process of pulling but I'm betting that **** pump with the stuck bypass was the cause, not the result.


"PIP4158C: Low Oil Pressure Due To Seized Oil Pressure Relief Valve - (Dec 29, 2009)


Subject: Low Oil Pump Pressure due to Seized Oil Pressure Relief Valve

Models: 2008-2009 Buick Lacrosse, Allure (Canada Only)
2007-2010 Cadillac CTS-V, Escalade
2007-2010 Chevrolet Avalanche, Corvette, Silverado, Suburban, Tahoe
2007-2008 Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS
2007-2009 Chevrolet Impala SS, Trail Blazer
2009-2010 Chevrolet Colorado
2010 Chevrolet Camaro
2007-2010 GMC Envoy, Sierra, Yukon
2009-2010 GMC Canyon
2008-2010 Hummer H2
2008-2010 H3 Alpha
2008 Pontiac Grand Prix GXP
2008-2010 Pontiac G8 GT
2007-2009 Saab 97x
with the Following Aluminum V8 Engine RPOs:
L76, L77, L92, L94, L99, L9H, LC9, LH6, LH8, LH9, LS2, LS3, LS4, LS7, LS9, LSA, LZ1

The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:

Some customers may complain of low oil pressure, no oil pressure, and/or engine noise, which may be the result of a sticking oil pump pressure relief valve. In some instances, this may occur intermittently if the valve frees up when the engine cools down.
Recommendation/Instructions:

If SI diagnosis isolates low mechanical oil pressure at the oil filter housing and oil pressure sensor, replace the oil pump, flush the oil cooler lines (if equipped), clean the inside of the oil pan, change the oil and filter, and re-evaluate the concern.

Notice: If an engine noise is noticed after replacing the oil pump, follow the SI diagnosis and repair the engine as necessary.

Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed. "

 

[SteveSRT8]

The above is precisely what happened to us, and in an engine not on the list.

I'm not sure if you remember me trying to convey that to you in your engine failure thread a while ago.

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The above is precisely what happened to us, and in an engine not on the list.

I'm not sure if you remember me trying to convey that to you in your engine failure thread a while ago.
Of course I remember Steve. I value your opinion greatly with regard to these engines. If you remember I pm'ed you last year when my 04 below first gave it up.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Don't worry, I am not looking for a check or anything!

Just know that we had this issue and it appears that it occurs on vehicles not on that list!

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Don't worry, I am not looking for a check or anything!

Just know that we had this issue and it appears that it occurs on vehicles not on that list!
Ha! If I sent you a check, you would be mighty dispointed with amount I could afford.

If you remember I mentioned I have a buddy who owns an Indy shop and who's opinion I greatly respect first told me it was the pump after I told him what happened(thought he was nuts). After some further discussion with him he told me has had to replace quite a few of these pumps due to low/lower pressure on customers trucks, most of which are the LQ4/LQ9's not on the list.

EDIT: Holy [censored]! These engines are a pain to pull.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: morris
dont for get the 1968 dodge hi performance 340. if you pushed oil to fast it would miss the turn to one of the main bearings. easily fixed with plugs and by pass hose. of course we are talking about spinning the engine much faster than stock. please for give me for showing my age.


I remember that one, the fix was to drill and tap both oil galleries in the lifter valley area and install a crossover tube that diverted some of the oil to the other gallery, slowing the flow speed down and increasing the delivered volume.

Also it affected ALL smallblock Mopars, not just the '68 340. If you spun any of them over about 6500 RPM for an extended period, you were at risk of starving a main bearing. But most of them ran out of breath long before 6500. The 340 didn't. A 273 Super Commando didn't. But you can brick the accelerator of a stock 318 0r 360 and they won't spin that fast.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: 3311
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Don't worry, I am not looking for a check or anything!

Just know that we had this issue and it appears that it occurs on vehicles not on that list!
Ha! If I sent you a check, you would be mighty dispointed with amount I could afford.

If you remember I mentioned I have a buddy who owns an Indy shop and who's opinion I greatly respect first told me it was the pump after I told him what happened(thought he was nuts). After some further discussion with him he told me has had to replace quite a few of these pumps due to low/lower pressure on customers trucks, most of which are the LQ4/LQ9's not on the list.

EDIT: Holy [censored]! These engines are a pain to pull.



Just wait till you have the pleasure of doing the same to a VAN!!!!

 

[morris]

i find it interesting that the oil pump in early hemis was a little alike the 273,318,340,360 oil pump line. once i shimed a 392 pump and split a reg fram filter. course it was in a 1959 ply wagon. my dad got so mad a GTO beat him. i had to tell him that he was giving away 1,000 LBS, and had no chance.

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: 3311
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Don't worry, I am not looking for a check or anything!

Just know that we had this issue and it appears that it occurs on vehicles not on that list!
Ha! If I sent you a check, you would be mighty dispointed with amount I could afford.

If you remember I mentioned I have a buddy who owns an Indy shop and who's opinion I greatly respect first told me it was the pump after I told him what happened(thought he was nuts). After some further discussion with him he told me has had to replace quite a few of these pumps due to low/lower pressure on customers trucks, most of which are the LQ4/LQ9's not on the list.

EDIT: Holy [censored]! These engines are a pain to pull.



Just wait till you have the pleasure of doing the same to a VAN!!!!
My sympathies, I cannot imagine, you must have to pull the whole front end.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: morris
i find it interesting that the oil pump in early hemis was a little alike the 273,318,340,360 oil pump line. once i shimed a 392 pump and split a reg fram filter. course it was in a 1959 ply wagon. my dad got so mad a GTO beat him. i had to tell him that he was giving away 1,000 LBS, and had no chance.


The WHOLE early Hemi engine- the Chrysler version moreso than DeSoto or Dodge versions- is very, very similar in layout to the later smallblock v8. The big-block (440, 426, 413, 400, both 383s, and the oft-forgotten 361 and 350) are radically different.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: 3311


EDIT: Holy [censored]! These engines are a pain to pull.


If it were a Ford 6.4 Powerstroke you could just pull the cab instead...

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: 3311


EDIT: Holy [censored]! These engines are a pain to pull.


If it were a Ford 6.4 Powerstroke you could just pull the cab instead...

It's not that bad actually I think I was over reacting. Just takes a ridiculous amount of time to pull the intake to get to the top three bell housing bolts and elec connectors back there though.

 

[morris]

ill tell you this, the 392 hemi didnt just drop in to the 59 ply.