Thinner oils and higher wear

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Let's try, (again, I know) shake the legend as thinner oils are good for long time use as engine longevity. Maybe this has been brought by sombody already
Machinery Lubrication magazine from Noria is getting some respect in this Forum, at least since I became a member I've seen about a dozen of articles from Noria in the Oil forums.
So, here a go with this:

"Thinner oils don't give enough cushion for particles trapped in part clearances."


http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oil

Thinner oils, like 0w20 are good for engine longevity or fuel/performance/warmup issues?

Come on 0w20 in general, not talking about new Hondas or Fords.
 
Quote:
Any abrasive particles equal to or larger than the oil film thickness will cause wear.


That part got my attention!
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Unfortunately, the laws of physics aren't merely suggestions.

That particle versus thin film is exactly the reason why bearings were all white metal (and very thick) back in the day.

Particles would get mushed into the surface (embedability), which kept them out of the clearance zone.

oil film thickness for a given design and speed/load always decreases with viscosity decrease.
 
Quote:
As wear increases, the efficiency of an engine declines. Valve train wear slightly changes valve timing and movement. Ring and liner wear affect compression. The wear hurts fuel efficiency and power output by an imperceptible amount at first, but then the difference in fuel economy between an SAE 10W-30 and SAE 5W-20 is hardly noticeable. Efficiency continues to decline as wear progresses. Perhaps optimizing wear protection is the way to reduce fuel consumption over the life of the engine.


He's gotta point there!
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Originally Posted By: Shannow

That particle versus thin film is exactly the reason why bearings were all white metal (and very thick) back in the day.

Particles would get mushed into the surface (embedability), which kept them out of the clearance zone.


You could see the embedded particles when you pulled those engines apart. The only filters were some rudimentary mesh screen.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Unfortunately, the laws of physics aren't merely suggestions.

That particle versus thin film is exactly the reason why bearings were all white metal (and very thick) back in the day.

Particles would get mushed into the surface (embedability), which kept them out of the clearance zone.

oil film thickness for a given design and speed/load always decreases with viscosity decrease.


Once again, great point. As far as the topic, this should be good.
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remember 'though that the MOFT is of the order of 1 micron...that's pretty small compared to filter ratings.
 
There are many high mileage Ford mod motors that lived their life on 5w-20. Same with Honda.

Some people are just too fixated on the heavy oil mentality.
 
At the end of the day, what does it matter anyway? In the past 15 years, the engines have outlasted the chassis in which they have been installed. As I have said in the past, in the next 15 years, the topic of discussion will be how thin xW-16 and xW-12 is and how thick xW-20 and xW-30 is and how xW-50 is no longer made...
 
Maybe a bypass filter in gasoline engines should be OEM equipment, just to play on the safe side?
The way it is now, everybody is runnig with the backup of luck. Since spin on filters on average usage have millions of harm particles, that should be avoided their scape from it.

and what will embbed on babbit and Aluminum? Iron and sand particles, the rest will keep scraching the engine untill it bends, reduce dimentions or mills finer than 3 microns.
 
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Originally Posted By: Pontual
Maybe a bypass filter in gasoline engines should be OEM equipment, just to play on the safe side?
On the safe side of what? This seems to be a solution for a non-existent problem.
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
At the end of the day, what does it matter anyway? In the past 15 years, the engines have outlasted the chassis in which they have been installed. As I have said in the past, in the next 15 years, the topic of discussion will be how thin xW-16 and xW-12 is and how thick xW-20 and xW-30 is and how xW-50 is no longer made...


If there is more wear going go %w-20 over %w-30 ... you're absolutely right. The engine is far going to outlast the rest of the vehicle - especially here in NY.
 
So the engine HAS to die with the car in 15 years?

You know, there are places where they don't use salt at roads in the winter also. And corrosion isn't abbreviationg their frame lifes.


What about million miles cars?

I see some embbeded consumerism inculqued minds, more than fixated heavy viscosity mentality, trying to extract more from a machinery ...
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Maybe a bypass filter in gasoline engines should be OEM equipment, just to play on the safe side?
On the safe side of what? This seems to be a solution for a non-existent problem.

Yup..solution looking for a problem.

If a 2 cycle can lubricate bearings and rings with a viscosity of less than 1 cSt. Its counter productive to worry about a viscosity of 7cSts. in a properly designed engine.
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Maybe a bypass filter in gasoline engines should be OEM equipment, just to play on the safe side?
On the safe side of what? This seems to be a solution for a non-existent problem.


By your UOAs I see you run mostly on perfectly paved highways using full synthetic oil, in a FFv vehicle. Come with your truck to city driving and rural areas and you'll start to see engine lifetime problems, much sooner to get preocupation. You're seeing from your cruiser standpoint, as you don't have problems, so anybody else will ever have ... You don't have carbon deposits in you flex fuel engine, an E85 ready, so nobody will also?
So, there are instances that a little more precaution is a valid measure.
 
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The "motor will outlast the rest of the car" thing doesn't apply here in California where we don't use road salt. Every car I know of that family or friends have gotten rid of due to problems were having mechanical problems, not problems with the structure of the car crumbling.

At any rate, I've had numerous cars that call for 5w-20 or 0w-20, I always run 0w-20 in all of them, and I've put on hundreds of thousands of miles with no problems with the motors. In fact, some of those were amongst the best-running and most reliable cars I've had. I don't believe I even had oil consumption issues with... any of them, come to think of it.

If a car car is designed to run on thin oil, give it thin oil. It will be fine. My newest Honda's L15B motor is actually designed to run on 0w-20 and even thinner - we're talking about stuff that may very well be 0w-7.5. I'll be doing a UOA on that in a month or so, and I'm not expecting to see anything scary.
 
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There's no such a thing as engine designed to exclusively run on thin oils, at least in temperate areas. That's an allowance, not a necessity. A thicker oil will lube the engine pretty good at warmer climates. A 10w40 could be run in a 0w20 spec. engine in Alaska summers with no problems at all. Even though a 0w20 at 0F is thicker then a 10w40 at 60F and everytime you start your engine you're temporarily passing throught the equivalent weight 60 side cooler viscosity, belive it or not.
 
Originally Posted By: fourside
The "motor will outlast the rest of the car" thing doesn't apply here in California where we don't use road salt. Every car I know of that family or friends have gotten rid of due to problems were having mechanical problems, not problems with the structure of the car crumbling.

At any rate, I've had numerous cars that call for 5w-20 or 0w-20, I always run 0w-20 in all of them, and I've put on hundreds of thousands of miles with no problems with the motors. In fact, some of those were amongst the best-running and most reliable cars I've had. I don't believe I even had oil consumption issues with... any of them, come to think of it.

If a car car is designed to run on thin oil, give it thin oil. It will be fine. My newest Honda's L15B motor is actually designed to run on 0w-20 and even thinner - we're talking about stuff that may very well be 0w-7.5. I'll be doing a UOA on that in a month or so, and I'm not expecting to see anything scary.


America's average engine age is of what 12-15 years old? You're talking about new engines, that are allowed to run thinner oil specially beause of better filtration and the requisite to use a better base oil at least semisyn (see Dexos1 and 2), that won't make as much carbon and soot.
And,
Could you garantee that a one grade up on the thicker side oil wouldn't give a longer life to newer engines?
 
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