Hey thanks for all the info. I've always followed the manual on my past vehicles and will continue to do so, it's just takes a little 'getting used to' 20 weight. Again, thanks for the info and what a great site!
Thinner oil = Increased wear?
- Thread starter djb383
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Name me one 5w20 engine oil that meets the heavy duty commercial specifications of CG-4 CH-4 CI-4 or CJ-4.
Shell Rotella 0w30 meets the 1998 CH-4 specification
Synlube 0w50 meets the 2002 CI-4 specification
Amsoil 5w30 meets the 2002 CI-4 specification
Name me one 5w20 engine oil that meets the 3.5 centistroke at 150 degrees centigrade high shear high temperature viscosity specification required for turbo charged and european engines.
0w30 Amsoil 3.4 centistrokes
Ow30 German Castrol
Name me one 5w20 engine oil that TODAY is marketed as a 15,000 mile extended drain motor oil.
Amsoil 0w30 35,000 miles
Mobil 1 EP 5w30 15,000 miles
1976 Mobil 1 5w20 25,000 miles
Name me one 5w20 engine oil that is CF-2 rated which means it can be used in a Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engine at sub zero temperatures
Synlube 0w50 meets the CF-2 grade
Amsoil 5w30 meets the CF-2 grade
Shell Rotella 0w30 meets the 1998 CH-4 specification
Synlube 0w50 meets the 2002 CI-4 specification
Amsoil 5w30 meets the 2002 CI-4 specification
Name me one 5w20 engine oil that meets the 3.5 centistroke at 150 degrees centigrade high shear high temperature viscosity specification required for turbo charged and european engines.
0w30 Amsoil 3.4 centistrokes
Ow30 German Castrol
Name me one 5w20 engine oil that TODAY is marketed as a 15,000 mile extended drain motor oil.
Amsoil 0w30 35,000 miles
Mobil 1 EP 5w30 15,000 miles
1976 Mobil 1 5w20 25,000 miles
Name me one 5w20 engine oil that is CF-2 rated which means it can be used in a Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engine at sub zero temperatures
Synlube 0w50 meets the CF-2 grade
Amsoil 5w30 meets the CF-2 grade
Today John Deere private labels a 0w40 synthetic engine oil as an alternative to 15w40 petroleum oil and they claim a temperature range of -40 degrees farenheight to 122 degrees farenheight and 50 percent longer drain intervals and a 2.7 percent fuel economy improvement over 15w40 with lower oil consumption and longer engine life. The John Deer Oil also meets the gasoline API SL grade and would be much better for gasoline engines than 15w40.
However for big rig trucks the John Deere 0w40 weight oil only goes up to the 1998 CH-4 specification. So over the road diesel fleets will have to go 0w50 or 5w30 to get the 2002 CI-4 rating.
However for big rig trucks the John Deere 0w40 weight oil only goes up to the 1998 CH-4 specification. So over the road diesel fleets will have to go 0w50 or 5w30 to get the 2002 CI-4 rating.
...runs great in a 5W-20 engine? All of them do. The 0W-30 Eurospec oils run TERRIBLE in 5W-20 engines, so don't tell people to use them in a 20 weight application! They are too thick at all reasonable operating temperatures. xW-20's have their own severe tests to pass, and other tests are irrelevant.
No one argues that in an ideal world it would be great if we could choose between half a dozen different oils each with their own specific application for a custom tailor fit. And this works great in a dealership shop environment. However in a fleet type environment the risk of having too many oils to choose from is the ever clear and present dange of misapplication which could cause much more damage than lack of a custom fit.
What we are seeing right now is that fleet managers are installing 15w40 diesel oil in passenger cars that require 5w20 grade oil simply because they believe that no other universal oil exists and they must have one lubricant that satisfies both their diesel and gasoline engines needs.
So when a 0w30 or 5w30 universal synthetic lubricant is proposed as a better alternative to 15w40 for applications such as 5w20 5w30 and 10w30 gasoline and 15w40 diesel applications the mechanic is told that this universal oil is snake oil and he might as well continue using the wrong 15w40 or start stocking half a dozen different oils.
What we are seeing right now is that fleet managers are installing 15w40 diesel oil in passenger cars that require 5w20 grade oil simply because they believe that no other universal oil exists and they must have one lubricant that satisfies both their diesel and gasoline engines needs.
So when a 0w30 or 5w30 universal synthetic lubricant is proposed as a better alternative to 15w40 for applications such as 5w20 5w30 and 10w30 gasoline and 15w40 diesel applications the mechanic is told that this universal oil is snake oil and he might as well continue using the wrong 15w40 or start stocking half a dozen different oils.
djb383, adding to this topic again. From my own experiences, thicker or thinner doesn't matter.
My Saturn with Pennzoil 5w-20 Synthetic
My Saturn, Pennzoil 10w-40 High Mileage
No difference in wear metals.
Experiment for yourself! Do a few UOA's and you'll find it probably doesn't matter what oil goes in most passenger vehicles. Any 20wt will do just fine.
In non gasoline/automotive applications, all bets are off. Viscosity matters.
Just changed the Syntec Blend 5w-30/10w-40 mix. Will send in for sample soon.
That my $0.02 cents, again. That makes 4 cents for this entire thread!
My Saturn with Pennzoil 5w-20 Synthetic
My Saturn, Pennzoil 10w-40 High Mileage
No difference in wear metals.
Experiment for yourself! Do a few UOA's and you'll find it probably doesn't matter what oil goes in most passenger vehicles. Any 20wt will do just fine.
In non gasoline/automotive applications, all bets are off. Viscosity matters.
Just changed the Syntec Blend 5w-30/10w-40 mix. Will send in for sample soon.
That my $0.02 cents, again. That makes 4 cents for this entire thread!
Agree with Toy-Sat:
That said, I probably SHOULD run strictly 5W20, but to sit and say it has huge ramifications is wrong, at least in this car, or those like it. It cannot be that critical. But at today's prices, what the heck, I'm not seeing any difference in any catagory you'd want to consider.. Most peeps wouldn't, and it's VERY difficult to prove it out in any vehicle, I'm sure..
My Hyundai Accent GT 1.6 specs 5W20 SL with an option (availability or not) on 5W30 or 10W30. I got a pretty good stash of Pennzoil HM 10W30 for free recently, and I can't tell a lick of difference mileage-wise, feel of the engine, or performance.
That said, I probably SHOULD run strictly 5W20, but to sit and say it has huge ramifications is wrong, at least in this car, or those like it. It cannot be that critical. But at today's prices, what the heck, I'm not seeing any difference in any catagory you'd want to consider.. Most peeps wouldn't, and it's VERY difficult to prove it out in any vehicle, I'm sure..
ooops...duallie
I think there must be some significant differences between the various 5W-20 spec'd engines as far as the volume of oil pumped is concerned. I can notice a significant drag on engine performance with a 30 weight in my 4.6L Ford, but I think the drag is less with some of the other engines. The crank mounted oil pump on the Modulars pumps a serious amount of oil! I tried GC and the short and miserable (200 mile) experience was like dragging a tree down the road. 5W-20 is the way to go if the engine can use it.
Honda V6s are similar in that they will pump enough oil to hit the oil pump relief valve @3000 RPMs when warm (71 psi). And the pump displaces 15.4 gpm @6000RPM.
Quote from toyotaNSaturn:
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Experiment for yourself! Do a few UOA's and you'll find it probably doesn't matter what oil goes in most passenger vehicles. Any 20wt will do just fine.
In non gasoline/automotive applications, all bets are off. Viscosity matters.
-------
Could it be said that majority of the motoring public use their passenger cars for what could be generalized as short trip conditions - oil may not reach full operating tempuratures/sustained operations would likely be seen by a vehicle driven on the interstate @ 55+ mph/averaged to be loaded with something like 850-1000lbs of payload which includes the driver and passengers?
As for oil not reaching full operating temperature it is unable to reach it's intended viscosity which may or may not be thinner than taken into account in the design of the engine - clearences and areas of load distribution like that found in cam assemblies. I could only imagine that the specific values of a bearing/lubricant are not as precise as an onlooker might think (myself...), but for all matter of credibility an ideal is considered.
As for sustained loads as in driving on the intersate at speed, a good air flow is present to counter otherwise hot underhood temps and for which are more or less able to stabilize and transfer throughout the mechanical body, fluids,cooling system(s). The running rpm and load are factored into the design as far as making for "ideal" conditions encountered with a particular vehicle for which it is spec'ed. If for some reason a less able engine was put in use in this particular vehicle and modifications weren't made to consider how the higher general load upon the engine would create (which in my mind equates to heat mangagement issues and all that's effected from mechanical fit amid all the moving parts and the tempurature-dependent fluids to even the combustion process), things would likely not fair in favor interms of longevity for the usefullness of the smaller engine.
As for on-board weight allowences of a vehicle, I would believe that to be a generally accepted load for not only the brakes, suspension and stability, but also for a generalized condition of stress that could be considered as for part of the design and for which engine/transmission/lubricants/cooling and such surface area(s) requirements...for sake of durability. Stepping outside this "system" would would among other things, place one into what one's owner's manual terms "severe service", and such operations require adjustment in vehicle service schedules, as well as potential benefits from modifcations - add-on cooling components for such things as transmission and even engine oil are common when towing, and perhaps moving one grade up in an engine oils weight (?w-30 to a ?w-40 for example).
Now going beyond the limitted encountered duties that a passenger car vehicle is generally expected to encounter, things can't be generalized so easilty and thus severe service situations become more of the norm. Just the fact that one has moved away from gasoline-fueled engines may be of some consideration to safety and dependability such daily use lends such a "vehicle" likely to encounter. Concerning viscosities, I think such severe cases of operation has lead to design considerations for more specific temperature management to make related falures less likely. One must also not forget that good lubrication isn't just fluid dependent, but also dependent upon the additives that come into play when things are at it's worst, within limits of course - boundry lubrication (for which all diesel-intended engine oils have up till recently with having considered consumption efficiencies leading to additions of FM's, have had an emphasis on boundry regimen protection AFAIK).
"Engines fascinate me...not soley for the mysterious forces at work inside the machine that take in air and a liquid, and produces mechanical energy along with heat and exhaust unpleasentries, but for the refinement such a mechanical body represents in and of itself. Then there's the management system(s) for applying the mechanical energy so as to enable desired work to be done. In it's entirety, it presents a kind/being of sorts."
[ July 30, 2006, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: Curious Kid ]
-------
Experiment for yourself! Do a few UOA's and you'll find it probably doesn't matter what oil goes in most passenger vehicles. Any 20wt will do just fine.
In non gasoline/automotive applications, all bets are off. Viscosity matters.
-------
Could it be said that majority of the motoring public use their passenger cars for what could be generalized as short trip conditions - oil may not reach full operating tempuratures/sustained operations would likely be seen by a vehicle driven on the interstate @ 55+ mph/averaged to be loaded with something like 850-1000lbs of payload which includes the driver and passengers?
As for oil not reaching full operating temperature it is unable to reach it's intended viscosity which may or may not be thinner than taken into account in the design of the engine - clearences and areas of load distribution like that found in cam assemblies. I could only imagine that the specific values of a bearing/lubricant are not as precise as an onlooker might think (myself...), but for all matter of credibility an ideal is considered.
As for sustained loads as in driving on the intersate at speed, a good air flow is present to counter otherwise hot underhood temps and for which are more or less able to stabilize and transfer throughout the mechanical body, fluids,cooling system(s). The running rpm and load are factored into the design as far as making for "ideal" conditions encountered with a particular vehicle for which it is spec'ed. If for some reason a less able engine was put in use in this particular vehicle and modifications weren't made to consider how the higher general load upon the engine would create (which in my mind equates to heat mangagement issues and all that's effected from mechanical fit amid all the moving parts and the tempurature-dependent fluids to even the combustion process), things would likely not fair in favor interms of longevity for the usefullness of the smaller engine.
As for on-board weight allowences of a vehicle, I would believe that to be a generally accepted load for not only the brakes, suspension and stability, but also for a generalized condition of stress that could be considered as for part of the design and for which engine/transmission/lubricants/cooling and such surface area(s) requirements...for sake of durability. Stepping outside this "system" would would among other things, place one into what one's owner's manual terms "severe service", and such operations require adjustment in vehicle service schedules, as well as potential benefits from modifcations - add-on cooling components for such things as transmission and even engine oil are common when towing, and perhaps moving one grade up in an engine oils weight (?w-30 to a ?w-40 for example).
Now going beyond the limitted encountered duties that a passenger car vehicle is generally expected to encounter, things can't be generalized so easilty and thus severe service situations become more of the norm. Just the fact that one has moved away from gasoline-fueled engines may be of some consideration to safety and dependability such daily use lends such a "vehicle" likely to encounter. Concerning viscosities, I think such severe cases of operation has lead to design considerations for more specific temperature management to make related falures less likely. One must also not forget that good lubrication isn't just fluid dependent, but also dependent upon the additives that come into play when things are at it's worst, within limits of course - boundry lubrication (for which all diesel-intended engine oils have up till recently with having considered consumption efficiencies leading to additions of FM's, have had an emphasis on boundry regimen protection AFAIK).
"Engines fascinate me...not soley for the mysterious forces at work inside the machine that take in air and a liquid, and produces mechanical energy along with heat and exhaust unpleasentries, but for the refinement such a mechanical body represents in and of itself. Then there's the management system(s) for applying the mechanical energy so as to enable desired work to be done. In it's entirety, it presents a kind/being of sorts."
[ July 30, 2006, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: Curious Kid ]
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
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- 39,798
Is it Autumn already in Vermont? That's the time I reserve for such reflection of self. That melancholy time ..ripe for introspective indulgence.
That deserves a nomination to the new BITOG LITERATURE forum. Shakespearean plays could be performed to that cadence. Most inspirational..
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage;
Then lend the eye a terrible aspect;
Let pry through the portage of the head
Like the brass cannon; let the brow o'erwhelm it
As fearfully as doth a galled rock
O'erhang and jutty his confounded base,
Swill'd with the wild and wasteful ocean.
Now set the teeth and stretch the nostril wide,
Hold hard the breath and bend up every spirit
To his full height. On, on, you noblest English.
Whose blood is fet from fathers of war-proof!
Fathers that, like so many Alexanders,
Have in these parts from morn till even fought
And sheathed their swords for lack of argument:
Dishonour not your mothers; now attest
That those whom you call'd fathers did beget you.
Be copy now to men of grosser blood,
And teach them how to war. And you, good yeoman,
Whose limbs were made in England, show us here
The mettle of your pasture; let us swear
That you are worth your breeding; which I doubt not;
For there is none of you so mean and base,
That hath not noble lustre in your eyes.
I see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,
Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:
Follow your spirit, and upon this charge
j/k - but it did strike some odd chord in me
That deserves a nomination to the new BITOG LITERATURE forum. Shakespearean plays could be performed to that cadence. Most inspirational..
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage;
Then lend the eye a terrible aspect;
Let pry through the portage of the head
Like the brass cannon; let the brow o'erwhelm it
As fearfully as doth a galled rock
O'erhang and jutty his confounded base,
Swill'd with the wild and wasteful ocean.
Now set the teeth and stretch the nostril wide,
Hold hard the breath and bend up every spirit
To his full height. On, on, you noblest English.
Whose blood is fet from fathers of war-proof!
Fathers that, like so many Alexanders,
Have in these parts from morn till even fought
And sheathed their swords for lack of argument:
Dishonour not your mothers; now attest
That those whom you call'd fathers did beget you.
Be copy now to men of grosser blood,
And teach them how to war. And you, good yeoman,
Whose limbs were made in England, show us here
The mettle of your pasture; let us swear
That you are worth your breeding; which I doubt not;
For there is none of you so mean and base,
That hath not noble lustre in your eyes.
I see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,
Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:
Follow your spirit, and upon this charge
j/k - but it did strike some odd chord in me
Continued...
However, as higher average loads are placed upon an engine, I would think localized heating would likely become more readily appearent and would thus favor the use of a lubricant that has a higher HTHS viscosity. Unless sump temperatures were able to be maintained cooler w/o any other problems arising, than unless other ways were taken into account to increase the transfer rate of thermal energies around these likely hot spots, than the addition of the external cooling aids is of little use at trying to eliminate the potential for localized wear that relates to lubricant film failure. There also must be some consideration as to the potential for fuel thinning and how such rates likely to be seen with all systems functioning "normally", would have with any given sump volume without much in the way of sacrificial results between maintenance servicing - again a reliability design/operations considereation.
Interesting Gary, and thanks (I think). I have such thoughts time to time, for what I can only fathom is my trying to gain insight into my understanding of existence, and how things relate, factually and implied. There's much in the way of perception and limitted reference that experience has enabled each of us. Coming into life having to live it to learn about it. It's amazing any of us experience as much as we do and live to tell or decide not to tell about it. None-the-less, one's mind adapts and one's behavior changes, if for no other reason than to survive...and further experience.
[ July 30, 2006, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: Curious Kid ]
However, as higher average loads are placed upon an engine, I would think localized heating would likely become more readily appearent and would thus favor the use of a lubricant that has a higher HTHS viscosity. Unless sump temperatures were able to be maintained cooler w/o any other problems arising, than unless other ways were taken into account to increase the transfer rate of thermal energies around these likely hot spots, than the addition of the external cooling aids is of little use at trying to eliminate the potential for localized wear that relates to lubricant film failure. There also must be some consideration as to the potential for fuel thinning and how such rates likely to be seen with all systems functioning "normally", would have with any given sump volume without much in the way of sacrificial results between maintenance servicing - again a reliability design/operations considereation.
Interesting Gary, and thanks (I think). I have such thoughts time to time, for what I can only fathom is my trying to gain insight into my understanding of existence, and how things relate, factually and implied. There's much in the way of perception and limitted reference that experience has enabled each of us. Coming into life having to live it to learn about it. It's amazing any of us experience as much as we do and live to tell or decide not to tell about it. None-the-less, one's mind adapts and one's behavior changes, if for no other reason than to survive...and further experience.
[ July 30, 2006, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: Curious Kid ]
Gary, I believe they quoted the same prose as a morning pep talk to the Test Engineers at the GM Desert Proving Grounds before a long, hot, summer day in the Arizona desert. Well, they moved the Desert Proving Grounds to Mezcala, Mexico so I guess they have to give it Spanglish now.
I don't know how to give you an average, traffic is generally way to congested with my present commute. 2500 RPMs at 75 mph when I do get to set the cruise control. AC permanently on 9 months of the year. Thick oil testing was done when my commute was mostly rural and consistent, although widely varied.
Every engine that is designed/calling for 5W20 has done just fine with it to date! We have not seen any abnormal wear to date in any engine calling for 5W20 or 0W20 from the OEM. In a lot of cases even engines not calling for 5W20 have done well if useing a robust 5W20 like Rewdline's 5W20 wich has an HTHS of 3.3. We have only seen a few instances of increased wear from useing a 5W20 in an engine not calling for it from the OEM.
Some OEM's are very specific about wich years and wich engine models can use 5W2- and 0W20 while others OEM's have gone almost completly over to 5W20.
Some OEM's are very specific about wich years and wich engine models can use 5W2- and 0W20 while others OEM's have gone almost completly over to 5W20.
However there is still a delusion by the motoring public that 5w20 engine oil may have long term durability issues and the motorists that have these concerns may be using 5w30 motor oils instead of 5w20. Fully synthetic 0w30 motor oils have been developed as an alternative to 5w20 engine oils and provide motorists with the peace of mind of a 30 weight oil yet the cold weather capabilitities of a 0 weight oil. For these heavy weight oil enthusiasts a 0w30 offers far better protection than a comparable 5w30 oil.
20 years ago we had the same problem when OEM's stopped recommending 10w40 grade oils in favor of 5w30 grade oils. Some motorists would even install 20w50 in an engine that specified 5w30. Synthetic oil producers quickly formulated 5w40 5w50 and 10w30 grade oils designed for 5w30 applications in an attempt to offer an alternative to 5w30 that would satisfy the needs of the heavyweight oil diehards who demanded the protection of 40 and 50 grade oils.
20 years ago we had the same problem when OEM's stopped recommending 10w40 grade oils in favor of 5w30 grade oils. Some motorists would even install 20w50 in an engine that specified 5w30. Synthetic oil producers quickly formulated 5w40 5w50 and 10w30 grade oils designed for 5w30 applications in an attempt to offer an alternative to 5w30 that would satisfy the needs of the heavyweight oil diehards who demanded the protection of 40 and 50 grade oils.
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This much is painfully apparent ..even here. I don't know about the mandate for a "0W" though.
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