Thick Oils, Cold Weather, Engine Wear???

[TooSlick]

No head scratching or "pencil whipping" is really required to determine this....

If the oil is thin enough to allow the engine to turn over and start easily, it's thin enough to use and won't result in abnormal wear....

German manufacturers use the standard CCS test temp as defined by the SAE J300 standard as their low temp limit for a particular SAE grade. This is a technically sound approach and will work with any engine....

SAE J300 Standard:

20w...-15C/+5F
15w...-20C/-4F
10w...-25C/-13F
5w....-30C/-22F
0w....-35C/-31F

In other words, your engine will start with a viscosity of 6000-7000 Centipoise, if the battery is in good shape and the engine is tuned up.

The only drawbacks will be sluggishness during the warmup phase and lower fuel efficiency at all times.

TS

 

[Pablo]

Thank you. Proof again that a syn 15w40 is pretty darn fine in the PNW

 

[427Z06]

Good luck with this recommendation. Last time I suggested following these limits with an additional safety factor added in, the old geezers came out of retirement to chastise me.

 

[TooSlick]

Pablo,

The CCS viscosity of AME is about 3000 Cp @ -20C, so it will easily meet the J300 requirements for an SAE 10wt @ -25C. The 15w40 designation is strictly for marketing reasons.

It would take very little effort to reformulate AME as an SAE 5w-40 and it will happen as soon as that becomes the standard for commercial engines if not before.

Ted

 

[buster]

Thanks, I think I'm going to stick with 10W's if possible. They seem to be less volatile over all.

 

[haley10]

Heyjay used to bring it up frequently that one needs to look at the CCS and MRV numbers for cold climate extremes.

I'm lucky in that I never see the extremes so I can use GC 0w30 or ATM 10w30 interchangeably. Above -10°F I doubt any difference.

Think Mobil made a worse oil going from 0-20 to 5-20? I doubt it. A lot of this xW can be marketing.

[ April 10, 2005, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: haley10 ]

 

[JohnBrowning]

This type of system closely mirrors what you would see in the owners manual of most European and Asian made car outside of N. Ameerica. THe format is a little different in that they would simply have a chart with recomended oil viscosity based on ambient temps.

It is only since the advent of CAFE and their credit system that you have seen the solo recomendation in most owners manuals inthe USA! I belive they are now required to only recomend the oil that the car was certified with!

We all know I have a serious bias toward runing the thicker oils then most on this site. I would have to agree with the information posted by TooSlick. It is accurate in that it closely reflects what I was taught and observed as a tech. in Europe!

Now being a lowly Tech. I am speaking from an observation stand point of practice as applied. I have no idea how they came to these conclusions!

It has been my experince that traditionaly weights like 15W40,10W40,20W50,15W50,10W60 have been popular in European and Asian made vechile from the 60's up through the late 1990's. It has been my experince that these viscositys were allowed to run in weather colder then is accepted here in the USA as appropiate. Their are still some European vechile and some Korean vechiles that still use the old SAE Temp./Viscosity guide in the owners manuals. It is my experince that outside of the USA the practice listed above is still heavily practiced.

I have personly run a 5W40 synthetic in -18°F in an engine only calling for 5W30 and 10W30 with no ill effect at all!

So to recap I think TS is right on for the most part. Their is always going to be exeptions but as a rule it seems to be right on!

 

[buster]

Here are the specs of the Amsoil 5w-40. I think Mobil, Redline and Amsoil all make excellent 5w-40's but I think the Amsoil is more idea for year round use and for cars due to it's viscosity when cold.

Viscosity, 77.7 SUS - about 15 Cst

TBN/ASTM D-4739, 12.4

Flashpoint, +440F
Insolubles - none

Additives:

Silicone, 4 ppm - antifoam additive

Calcium, 3243 ppm
Mg, 11 ppm
P, 906 ppm
Zinc, 1000 ppm

 

[haley10]

Back when I was not enlightened by bitog, I bought a 79 Corolla and kept it for 11 years until everything was falling apart, but the engine was fine. I ran 20W-50 all the time. I'm pretty sure it was the recommended grade. Started in 0F plenty. Now I know better.

Still have the 87 Mitsu pickup and started right up @ -13F no problem with 10W-40 at the time. 170K and counting.

Good practice? No, but I didn't know any better then.

 

[LarryL]

TooSlick, how high do you think an engine should go in viscosity. Remember my Honda Civic with 376k miles. It has gone from 5w30 in steps to 20w-50 based on wear and oil consumption over 21 years of constant use. Right now it's up to about 1qt/5k miles, maybe a little more. I've been told pumping thick oil hurts mileage, but with the wear, I think it's a push. My next step up would be 20w-60. Other than a lot of miles the engine is running fine and the mileage is about the same as ever. But after 20w-60 where do I go next? I've been looking for problems, using the thicker oil, but nothing, so far.

 

[Ken2]

A quart/5000 miles is almost nothing. I'd drop back to a 15w40 and keep it there.


Ken

 

[mikemc]

Before BITOG, the closest I came to talking with oil 'expets' were the guys at the local oil change shack. They always recommended 10w30, which was not bad advice for east Ky. Of course thay also said 5w30 was so thin it would blow up my motor.

 

[Steve S]

Every one seems to forget ,imo the most important feature of a syn oil is it's cold weather performance . Seems a 10w30 Amsoil,M1 etc.should blow away any 5w30 petro oil .

 

[Ugly3]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TooSlick:
No head scratching or "pencil whipping" is really required to determine this....

If the oil is thin enough to allow the engine to turn over and start easily, it's thin enough to use and won't result in abnormal wear....

German manufacturers use the standard CCS test temp as defined by the SAE J300 standard as their low temp limit for a particular SAE grade. This is a technically sound approach and will work with any engine....

SAE J300 Standard:

20w...-15C/+5F
15w...-20C/-4F
10w...-25C/-13F
5w....-30C/-22F
0w....-35C/-31F

In other words, your engine will start with a viscosity of 6000-7000 Centipoise, if the battery is in good shape and the engine is tuned up.

The only drawbacks will be sluggishness during the warmup phase and lower fuel efficiency at all times.

TS

---

This is a joke, right?

 

[Steve S]

quote:

---

Originally posted by LarryL:
TooSlick, how high do you think an engine should go in viscosity. Remember my Honda Civic with 376k miles. It has gone from 5w30 in steps to 20w-50 based on wear and oil consumption over 21 years of constant use. Right now it's up to about 1qt/5k miles, maybe a little more. I've been told pumping thick oil hurts mileage, but with the wear, I think it's a push. My next step up would be 20w-60. Other than a lot of miles the engine is running fine and the mileage is about the same as ever. But after 20w-60 where do I go next? I've been looking for problems, using the thicker oil, but nothing, so far.

---

Larry your oil comsumption is very low 1 qt. per 5000 miles.

 

[unDummy]

My only problem with this is "what oil is SAE/ASTM testing"?

I bet that oil fresh from the bottle will have better numbers then the oil in your engine with 3k-5k miles.

We've seen some oils shear and some oils thicken in a used oil analysis. But, nowhere in the used oil analysis is low temp cranking or pumping (re)tested.

Also, the thicker oils will create higher oil pressure possibly resulting in pressure or filter bypass.
I want filtered oil flow in my engine. I don't my oil pressure regulator dumping oil back to the pan because pressure is too high. I also don't want my filter to be bypassed because oil is too thick to flow easily through the filter. I'll stick with the 5w and 0w oils.

 

[Flimflam]

quote:

---

Originally posted by haley10:
Back when I was not enlightened by bitog, I bought a 79 Corolla and kept it for 11 years until everything was falling apart, but the engine was fine. I ran 20W-50 all the time. I'm pretty sure it was the recommended grade. Started in 0F plenty. Now I know better.

Still have the 87 Mitsu pickup and started right up @ -13F no problem with 10W-40 at the time. 170K and counting.

Good practice? No, but I didn't know any better then.

---

Haley, you are in good company. Back in 1990, I had a Suzuki Sidekick, and I ran it on dino Castrol GTX 20w-50 exclusively. I lived and worked in New York then, and it started without a hitch in 22 degrees F. Never had a problem with that ride, nor with Castrol GTX.

It would stumble and bog down with other makes of conventional 20w50, though. Unscrupulous service shops would try to sneak inferior brands of 20w-50 by me when I was not paying attention. Within 2 blocks of leaving the station, I would be on to their little trick, because the engine wouldn't rev. Felt like I had cement in the Sump. I'd make a U and force them to dump it all out and change to a "real" oil....Castrol.

 

[andyd]

my experience coincides quite well with the J 300 spec. I use the recommended 20w50 in my 88 Bmw 528e. When temps dip below 10f around Xmas, I switch to 10w40.No starting problems at -10f which is about as cold as it get here.

 

[LarryL]

With 10w-40 my oil consumption is just over 2 qts/5k miles. My first batch of 20w-50 only lost a half quart during that first 5k miles. Early on this engine burned under 1/2 qt/5k miles. Last stretch of 6.2k miles it was 1 qts + 4 oz. It's been a steady progression, starting at about 75/100k miles and each step up in viscosity has kept the burn off constant. The engine turns over quickly and starts right away and has original compression. I'm just worried that going back to a thinner oil will gain nothing except more oil burned off. Thicker oil is ok in older engines. When this car was built ('84) there was no such thing as a 0w30 that I know of, and certainly 0w-20 was not on the shelves for use in Hondas.

 

[Pablo]

TS I realize that. I've been saying that for the last 2-3 years. It's why have have the confidence to run AME year around.

Honestly though a conventional 15w40 at -4° still is way too viscous for my tastes....even 10°F is pushing it IMHO. It may pump and flow, but.....well...stick with the owner's manual!!