Do people "deserve" 2 European sports cars at the general population's expense?
They built them, and no one came...
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Originally Posted By: Cause4Alarm
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Over-weight people don't like to be in subcompacts and compacts.
funny you say that.....up here 90lbs women like to drive 1 ton trucks and i see 500lbs people in saturns neons and metros....
+1.
I've seen people traveling with 1 child load more stuff into the back of the SUV "because they NEED to bring all this stuff" for the little tyke's sake" than I took with me on a 2 week vacation. Actually had my tuchus handed to me by a coworker once because I didn't agree with her that a family of 4 can't get by in a house unless it was at least 3000 sq. ft. But I'm starting to digress....
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Over-weight people don't like to be in subcompacts and compacts.
funny you say that.....up here 90lbs women like to drive 1 ton trucks and i see 500lbs people in saturns neons and metros....
+1.
I've seen people traveling with 1 child load more stuff into the back of the SUV "because they NEED to bring all this stuff" for the little tyke's sake" than I took with me on a 2 week vacation. Actually had my tuchus handed to me by a coworker once because I didn't agree with her that a family of 4 can't get by in a house unless it was at least 3000 sq. ft. But I'm starting to digress....
Originally Posted By: Cristobal
There is still a recession going on, regardless of what "experts" report. If people do not have the jobs, the credit, and the optomism, they will not make large purchases. That is human nature.
That's basically the reason. People who are hurting the most from the high gas prices do not have the means to adjust their transportation methods. The people who are able to buy new cars, are not affected by the gas prices so they do not base their decisions on fuel efficiency.
There is still a recession going on, regardless of what "experts" report. If people do not have the jobs, the credit, and the optomism, they will not make large purchases. That is human nature.
That's basically the reason. People who are hurting the most from the high gas prices do not have the means to adjust their transportation methods. The people who are able to buy new cars, are not affected by the gas prices so they do not base their decisions on fuel efficiency.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Agreed, he wasn't referring to all truck buyers, just making an assumption about a large number of them, just as you did in your comment.
It's not about trucks as much as it's about the general trend toward SUVs and crossovers.
Most modern SUVs and crossovers are designed specifically for people whose usage patterns are perfectly suited to sedans/wagons/minivans, but want the image of a larger and/or "tougher" looking vehicle. People who buy those kinds of vehicles -- and evidently there are a LOT of them -- are quite obviously different from people who buy trucks for what trucks are good at.
Agreed, he wasn't referring to all truck buyers, just making an assumption about a large number of them, just as you did in your comment.
It's not about trucks as much as it's about the general trend toward SUVs and crossovers.
Most modern SUVs and crossovers are designed specifically for people whose usage patterns are perfectly suited to sedans/wagons/minivans, but want the image of a larger and/or "tougher" looking vehicle. People who buy those kinds of vehicles -- and evidently there are a LOT of them -- are quite obviously different from people who buy trucks for what trucks are good at.
It's unfortunate that people still don't know how to drive SUV's. USA, being one of the most smartest nations in the world, should start a program where people have to earn a special license in order to drive a SUV--especially women and women with kids.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
We don't want what we can afford in the long term. We want what we can get away with in the short term. Human nature...
EXACTLY!
We don't want what we can afford in the long term. We want what we can get away with in the short term. Human nature...
EXACTLY!
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
We don't want what we can afford in the long term. We want what we can get away with in the short term. Human nature...
I take it that you behave differently than the rest of "we"?
We don't want what we can afford in the long term. We want what we can get away with in the short term. Human nature...
I take it that you behave differently than the rest of "we"?
Originally Posted By: hhu168
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Over-weight people don't like to be in subcompacts and compacts.
Good point. Those who think the consumers are wrong just need to wake up.
Consumers are idiots and need to hearded like sheep.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Over-weight people don't like to be in subcompacts and compacts.
Good point. Those who think the consumers are wrong just need to wake up.
Consumers are idiots and need to hearded like sheep.
Well, the new VW Microbus is due out in a year. In the meantime the KIA Rondo is a good choice.
Unfortunately, in these parts, when the quote/unquote "idiots" seem to all be driving big, worn-out/borderline dangerous older SUVs, full size pickups, and older full-frame vehicles such as Impala/Caprices, Crown Vic/Grand Marquis, big vans and like vehicles-there is a definite SAFETY PENALTY in driving a small car. I remind (probably to the point of nagging) my wife to be VERY CAREFUL driving her 1st gen Scion xB-she has been practically run off the road multiple times because people "don't see" her in it-don't discount perceived (OR REAL!) safety issues for the poor sales performance of small vehicles.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
.... The MPG target may be completely arbitrary, but the take-home lesson is that high consumption rates are unsustainable, and we (the customers) are at fault for insisting on them.
In the face of an energy policy that can be summarized as arbitrary opposition to the production of energy, any consumption is unsustainable.
Maybe the government should listen to what people want, instead of coming up with arbitrary and unrealistic MPG targets that result in the large expenditure of monies that could be better spent elsewhere.
.... The MPG target may be completely arbitrary, but the take-home lesson is that high consumption rates are unsustainable, and we (the customers) are at fault for insisting on them.
In the face of an energy policy that can be summarized as arbitrary opposition to the production of energy, any consumption is unsustainable.
Maybe the government should listen to what people want, instead of coming up with arbitrary and unrealistic MPG targets that result in the large expenditure of monies that could be better spent elsewhere.
And I would add that the CHEAPER small vehicles, such as the Korean Hyundal/Kia twins-seem to have no problem selling around here.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Most modern SUVs and crossovers are designed specifically for people whose usage patterns are perfectly suited to sedans/wagons/minivans, but want the image of a larger and/or "tougher" looking vehicle.
Just more assumptions.
Maybe they like the utility of the crossover, there arent many station wagons still on the market and the crossover has become the default replacement in that segment. Maybe they like riding higher as they drive and prefer the view from up there...idk....and your assumption that they buy based on "image" alone is childish and doesn't account for all the factors involved.
And besides, the average crossover gets the same mileage as a mini van, so why the fuss about them?
Most modern SUVs and crossovers are designed specifically for people whose usage patterns are perfectly suited to sedans/wagons/minivans, but want the image of a larger and/or "tougher" looking vehicle.
Just more assumptions.
Maybe they like the utility of the crossover, there arent many station wagons still on the market and the crossover has become the default replacement in that segment. Maybe they like riding higher as they drive and prefer the view from up there...idk....and your assumption that they buy based on "image" alone is childish and doesn't account for all the factors involved.
And besides, the average crossover gets the same mileage as a mini van, so why the fuss about them?
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
.... The MPG target may be completely arbitrary, but the take-home lesson is that high consumption rates are unsustainable, and we (the customers) are at fault for insisting on them.
In the face of an energy policy that can be summarized as arbitrary opposition to the production of energy, any consumption is unsustainable.
Maybe the government should listen to what people want, instead of coming up with arbitrary and unrealistic MPG targets that result in the large expenditure of monies that could be better spent elsewhere.
Bravo Sir!
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
.... The MPG target may be completely arbitrary, but the take-home lesson is that high consumption rates are unsustainable, and we (the customers) are at fault for insisting on them.
In the face of an energy policy that can be summarized as arbitrary opposition to the production of energy, any consumption is unsustainable.
Maybe the government should listen to what people want, instead of coming up with arbitrary and unrealistic MPG targets that result in the large expenditure of monies that could be better spent elsewhere.
Bravo Sir!
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
.... The MPG target may be completely arbitrary, but the take-home lesson is that high consumption rates are unsustainable, and we (the customers) are at fault for insisting on them.
In the face of an energy policy that can be summarized as arbitrary opposition to the production of energy, any consumption is unsustainable.
Maybe the government should listen to what people want, instead of coming up with arbitrary and unrealistic MPG targets that result in the large expenditure of monies that could be better spent elsewhere.
Not to get to political, but unless you're flush with cash & like to spread it around, or own your own media company-the government really doesn't care much what you want. On BOTH sides of the aisle!
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
.... The MPG target may be completely arbitrary, but the take-home lesson is that high consumption rates are unsustainable, and we (the customers) are at fault for insisting on them.
In the face of an energy policy that can be summarized as arbitrary opposition to the production of energy, any consumption is unsustainable.
Maybe the government should listen to what people want, instead of coming up with arbitrary and unrealistic MPG targets that result in the large expenditure of monies that could be better spent elsewhere.
Not to get to political, but unless you're flush with cash & like to spread it around, or own your own media company-the government really doesn't care much what you want. On BOTH sides of the aisle!
Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
...well, not yet anyway.
So much for those who still think that the manufacturers somehow persuade buyers with marketing and other slight of hand.
One would think that after making a 50 billion dollar investment, and marketing the snot out of these things. The manufactureres might actually want to sell a few? But the American public has a different idea of what they want, and always has.....
Your post flies in the face of those who want to blame the marketing departments of the Big 3, particularly GM, for America's love affair with the SUV.
This proves they can market something. It also shows apparent decent engineering touches, even something midrange like an explorer has lots of cupholders, buttons, and other luxuries people like. I have to wonder if their marketing is a bunch of drowning guys pushing each other underwater though. The closest transition to pricier cars was dumb stuff like pontiac's divided grill appearing across the division. Or those mercurys that all lit up all the way across the front in the early 90s.
Ford has the right thing going with lovable Mike Rowe prattling on about the Fusion getting 10 mpg better than a camry, and holding its resale value as well. Where's the Cruze's representation? The saturn S-series got love when it was the only brand representative in its showroom... but then failed to bootstrap its buyers into bigger saturns (or other GMs) for years and years.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
...well, not yet anyway.
So much for those who still think that the manufacturers somehow persuade buyers with marketing and other slight of hand.
One would think that after making a 50 billion dollar investment, and marketing the snot out of these things. The manufactureres might actually want to sell a few? But the American public has a different idea of what they want, and always has.....
Your post flies in the face of those who want to blame the marketing departments of the Big 3, particularly GM, for America's love affair with the SUV.
This proves they can market something. It also shows apparent decent engineering touches, even something midrange like an explorer has lots of cupholders, buttons, and other luxuries people like. I have to wonder if their marketing is a bunch of drowning guys pushing each other underwater though. The closest transition to pricier cars was dumb stuff like pontiac's divided grill appearing across the division. Or those mercurys that all lit up all the way across the front in the early 90s.
Ford has the right thing going with lovable Mike Rowe prattling on about the Fusion getting 10 mpg better than a camry, and holding its resale value as well. Where's the Cruze's representation? The saturn S-series got love when it was the only brand representative in its showroom... but then failed to bootstrap its buyers into bigger saturns (or other GMs) for years and years.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Over-weight people don't like to be in subcompacts and compacts.
Neither do tall ones; I'm 6'4" and my wife is 6'1" and we simply don't fit in most economy sized cars. We'd buy one and get 40mpg if we could, but even the VW Jetta (we considered the diesel) was too small for us. Maybe it's time to drive the Scion Xb.
But the downscaling of interiors is in all vehicles now; I went to sit in a full size Dodge pickup recently and it didn't have enough headroom.
As gas prices go up, more and more people will start switching...although if you do the math, over the course of 5 years, it's cheaper to keep your 5 year old car that gets 20mpg than buy a new car for 18k that gets 45.
Over-weight people don't like to be in subcompacts and compacts.
Neither do tall ones; I'm 6'4" and my wife is 6'1" and we simply don't fit in most economy sized cars. We'd buy one and get 40mpg if we could, but even the VW Jetta (we considered the diesel) was too small for us. Maybe it's time to drive the Scion Xb.
But the downscaling of interiors is in all vehicles now; I went to sit in a full size Dodge pickup recently and it didn't have enough headroom.
As gas prices go up, more and more people will start switching...although if you do the math, over the course of 5 years, it's cheaper to keep your 5 year old car that gets 20mpg than buy a new car for 18k that gets 45.
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Originally Posted By: Popinski
It's unfortunate that people still don't know how to drive SUV's. USA, being one of the most smartest nations in the world, should start a program where people have to earn a special license in order to drive a SUV--especially women and women with kids.
Because every man who drives an SUV is going to pull over to the side of the road on his way home from work, wrestle a deer to death like Bear Grills, then hang it from the tailgate and bleed it out and reverse out of the ditch unscathed.
A parent and child sharing a 22 MPG SUV are getting better mileage per person than 98% of the single occupant commuter cars.
It's unfortunate that people still don't know how to drive SUV's. USA, being one of the most smartest nations in the world, should start a program where people have to earn a special license in order to drive a SUV--especially women and women with kids.
Because every man who drives an SUV is going to pull over to the side of the road on his way home from work, wrestle a deer to death like Bear Grills, then hang it from the tailgate and bleed it out and reverse out of the ditch unscathed.
A parent and child sharing a 22 MPG SUV are getting better mileage per person than 98% of the single occupant commuter cars.
Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
...well, not yet anyway.
So much for those who still think that the manufacturers somehow persuade buyers with marketing and other slight of hand.
One would think that after making a 50 billion dollar investment, and marketing the snot out of these things. The manufactureres might actually want to sell a few? But the American public has a different idea of what they want, and always has.....
Your post flies in the face of those who want to blame the marketing departments of the Big 3, particularly GM, for America's love affair with the SUV.
Agreed, I've never bought into that whole line of thinking. It assumes the majority of people are lemmings...sure some are, but most? Not in my experience.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
...well, not yet anyway.
So much for those who still think that the manufacturers somehow persuade buyers with marketing and other slight of hand.
One would think that after making a 50 billion dollar investment, and marketing the snot out of these things. The manufactureres might actually want to sell a few? But the American public has a different idea of what they want, and always has.....
Your post flies in the face of those who want to blame the marketing departments of the Big 3, particularly GM, for America's love affair with the SUV.
Agreed, I've never bought into that whole line of thinking. It assumes the majority of people are lemmings...sure some are, but most? Not in my experience.
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
.... The MPG target may be completely arbitrary, but the take-home lesson is that high consumption rates are unsustainable, and we (the customers) are at fault for insisting on them.
In the face of an energy policy that can be summarized as arbitrary opposition to the production of energy, any consumption is unsustainable.
Maybe the government should listen to what people want, instead of coming up with arbitrary and unrealistic MPG targets that result in the large expenditure of monies that could be better spent elsewhere.
The intial CAFE got us from 13.5 MPG to 27 and dumped points ignition, carburetors, and got way more passenger space with less exterior largesse. Coincidentally with better fuel control we stopped fouling oil with gas and engines started lasting longer too. I bet there were nay-sayers then as well.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
.... The MPG target may be completely arbitrary, but the take-home lesson is that high consumption rates are unsustainable, and we (the customers) are at fault for insisting on them.
In the face of an energy policy that can be summarized as arbitrary opposition to the production of energy, any consumption is unsustainable.
Maybe the government should listen to what people want, instead of coming up with arbitrary and unrealistic MPG targets that result in the large expenditure of monies that could be better spent elsewhere.
The intial CAFE got us from 13.5 MPG to 27 and dumped points ignition, carburetors, and got way more passenger space with less exterior largesse. Coincidentally with better fuel control we stopped fouling oil with gas and engines started lasting longer too. I bet there were nay-sayers then as well.
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