The world of 0w40s

[UNC017]

OK, I don't usually get too involved in "which oil...?" threads, let alone start one. But I'm a little bored, and also curious about a seeming gap in the BITOG universe...

There's a LOT of talk on here about Mobil 1 0w40 and how great it is. And I agree, I use it in my SRT as well as both my old 440s with no complaints at all (not that I'd have "complaints" if I ran Supertech 5w30 in all of them either, I get that.)

But in contrast to all the discussion of Mobil 1 0w40, there's very little talk about most of the other 0w40 and non-HDEO 5w40s that are available. Yes, PU SRT 0w40 usually gets brought up at least in passing. I think I may recall one thread with a passing mention of RP 0w40 API series.

So, cost aside, how do most of y'all think Redline 0w40 stacks up against Mobil 1? Its a little thicker, has a little higher HTHS, and NOACK of 9, which seems a little on the high side by modern standards. But then I'm personally not sure how to evaluate its raw numbers given that it claims to be primarily ester based.

And any thoughts on RP 0w40 API? Personally I think their 5w40 (which still has their sulfurized ester Synerlec even in the API series) looks a little better in an application calling for 0w40, if sub-freezing temps are rare and sub-zero nonexistent.

Anyone ever used Amsoil Signature 0w40, or have any spec-based thoughts?

North-American rarities like Lubro-Moly or

Numbers and test results preferred but opinions are of interest too (unless anyone brings up how an oil "sounds" in which case I'm going to reach through the computer and strangle you.)

 

[OneEyeJack]

I have no idea how one would evaluate one 0w-40 vs another. Spec's are there, sure, but that's just the formula and not the result of actual use.

If it were not for government regulations 0w-40 might just be the oil of choice for a lot of manufacturers.

Probably any "synthetic" 0w-40 oil will do an outstanding job of lubricating a modern internal combustion engine. The focus of routine maintenance might then be shifted to environment, cooling system, gasoline and the fuel system, the electrical system and driving habits.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
But in contrast to all the discussion of Mobil 1 0w40, there's very little talk about most of the other 0w40 and non-HDEO 5w40s that are available. Yes, PU SRT 0w40 usually gets brought up at least in passing. I think I may recall one thread with a passing mention of RP 0w40 API series.

So, cost aside, how do most of y'all think Redline 0w40 stacks up against Mobil 1?

To me the biggest difference is that oils such as Mobil 1 0w-40, Castrol 0w-40, or Pennzoil Euro 5w-40 actually meet Euro manufacturer specs. The others that you mentioned do not. If your car is still under warranty and calls for these specs, it matters. And even if you're outside of warranty, you still do not know if these oils would actually be able to meet these specs, which by the way exceed your generic API spec by quite a bit.



Quote:

Its a little thicker, has a little higher HTHS, and NOACK of 9, which seems a little on the high side by modern standards.

Based on what I've seen, Noack of 9 is about typical for a 0w-40 oil. I think Mobil 1 0w-40 is around 8.8, based on some old documentation. Castrol 0w-40 is around 8,9, based on some Russian VOA.

 

[CT8]

I would guess that most people use a 30wt or a 20 wt.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
But in contrast to all the discussion of Mobil 1 0w40, there's very little talk about most of the other 0w40 and non-HDEO 5w40s that are available. Yes, PU SRT 0w40 usually gets brought up at least in passing. I think I may recall one thread with a passing mention of RP 0w40 API series.

So, cost aside, how do most of y'all think Redline 0w40 stacks up against Mobil 1?
To me the biggest difference is that oils such as Mobil 1 0w-40, Castrol 0w-40, or Pennzoil Euro 5w-40 actually meet Euro manufacturer specs. The others that you mentioned do not. If your car is still under warranty and calls for these specs, it matters. And even if you're outside of warranty, you still do not know if these oils would actually be able to meet these specs, which by the way exceed your generic API spec by quite a bit.

Other than Mobil 1 0w-40 and Castrol 0w-40 actually meet Euro manufacturer specs, they are available at Walmart and most auto parts stores.

Let say suddenly you are bored and like to change your oil after going back from a shopping trip, you can just go to Walmart to pick up a couple jugs Mobil 1 0W40 for around $55-60 to change 8 quarts sump of your MB car. Can you do that with Redline 0W40 ?

 

[BobsArmory]

This is a very good question. I will be interested with the replies.

 

[dparm]

Red Line doesn't bother pursuing any OEM certifications. Does that mean they can't meet them? Hard to say, but something to think about. It's a boutique oil targeted at a different kind of person than the other OEM-approved oils.

 

[silveravant]

I like Mobil 1 0W40 because I can buy it cheep at Walmart and I really don't think anything is much better. If you can really hear that other oil "sounds" better your ears are better than mine.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Red Line doesn't bother pursuing any OEM certifications. Does that mean they can't meet them? Hard to say, but something to think about. It's a boutique oil targeted at a different kind of person than the other OEM-approved oils.


^^^THIS.

Same goes for the even more costly Motul 300V Trophy 0W-40 (even though I've found a source for the 300V which is only a few bucks a quart/liter more than what Jegs gets for their Red Line 0W-40).

Again, this is NOT SAYING that the Mobil 1 Euro 0w40 is not a GREAT oil!

 

[Wolf359]

How about Castrol 0w30? I checked my manual and it says that 0w30 and 0w40 is fine for my MB. Got a bunch of it for $2 at Autozone. Don't notice any difference in gas mileage or sounds so far.

 

[Rolla07]

Despite differences in formulations I think they are very similar and would be hard to say which is superior. Mobil 1 has a great reputation and their oil is cheap and easy to obtain. Those 3 factors play into most peoples minds when it comes to buying oil. If im going to pay double for something..i need to know what makes it worth it.

 

[Scum_Frog]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
But in contrast to all the discussion of Mobil 1 0w40, there's very little talk about most of the other 0w40 and non-HDEO 5w40s that are available. Yes, PU SRT 0w40 usually gets brought up at least in passing. I think I may recall one thread with a passing mention of RP 0w40 API series.

So, cost aside, how do most of y'all think Redline 0w40 stacks up against Mobil 1?

To me the biggest difference is that oils such as Mobil 1 0w-40, Castrol 0w-40, or Pennzoil Euro 5w-40 actually meet Euro manufacturer specs. The others that you mentioned do not. If your car is still under warranty and calls for these specs, it matters. And even if you're outside of warranty, you still do not know if these oils would actually be able to meet these specs, which by the way exceed your generic API spec by quite a bit.



Quote:

Its a little thicker, has a little higher HTHS, and NOACK of 9, which seems a little on the high side by modern standards.

Based on what I've seen, Noack of 9 is about typical for a 0w-40 oil. I think Mobil 1 0w-40 is around 8.8, based on some old documentation. Castrol 0w-40 is around 8,9, based on some Russian VOA.



Agree the tough Euro specs make Mobil 1, Castrol and Penz a step above the rest of the 0W40 crowd.

As for Mobil 1 vs Castrol I believe them to be equals... I tend to lean towards GC because I can get it in 5L jugs which is perfect for an OC on both VW's vs the 4.4L jug that Mobil 1 comes in...... Purely an economic decision.

 

[SR5]

Right now I'm using the new GTL Shell Helix Ultra / Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40. It carries all the OEM certs MB229.5, BMW LL-01, Porsche A40, Ferrari, etc.

I believe this is the PDS for the new GTL oil.
http://oilmart.com/data/products/pds/1245/PDS Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40.pdf

HTHS of 3.88 cP and Noack of 6.8% according to above.

I find it difficult to pay more $ for less OEM certs, which is what you sometimes get with the more boutique products. Still I have used them on occasion, and they worked fine. But so does Mobil 1 and Castrol Edge.

I went with the Shell Helix Ultra, because it seems to be for many places outside of North America, the SHU is the least expensive name brand MB 229.5 oil around. I get it for less than half the price of Mobil 1 0W-40, and it's everywhere around me. I just saw some 1L bottles of SHU at KMart today.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
And any thoughts on RP 0w40 API? Personally I think their 5w40 (which still has their sulfurized ester Synerlec even in the API series) looks a little better in an application calling for 0w40, if sub-freezing temps are rare and sub-zero nonexistent.

I never tried their 5w-40, but I did use the 0w-40 a few times in the old Audi. I did find it good in the cold, and it was fine on the consumption side of things, too. I tried it when the other recommended winter viscosity, 5w30, was drunk like crazy by the thing. RP 0w-40 required no top up over an OCI, so that was nice.

Of course, if a vehicle calls for certain certifications, especially under warranty, one has to exhibit some caution. I gather Shell has different 40 grade products for SRT and for Euro stuff for a good reason, but one really never knows. I'm not sure why an SRT vehicle cannot be served by a good A3/B4 lubricant.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Garak

I gather Shell has different 40 grade products for SRT and for Euro stuff for a good reason, but one really never knows. I'm not sure why an SRT vehicle cannot be served by a good A3/B4 lubricant.


I agree, why not just spec a 0W-40 or 5W-40 A3/B4, there are a lot of good ones around. Maybe they didn't want to spec a Euro standard in a American car. Maybe the SRT oil has something special.

 

[SR5]

Talking about the more exotic 0W-40 oils, Penrite makes a 10-Tenths series of oils that are 100% PAO and Ester, with generous amounts of Zinc and Boron.

They have a 10-Tenths Premium 0W-40.

It sounds like every boys dream oil, pure PAO & Ester, 1200 ppm Zn, 600 ppm Boron, VI of 185 , TBN of 9.8, etc. I'm not sure about the 0W40, but the Penrite 10W-40 has a HTHS of 4.49 cP !!!! Isn't Mobil 1 0W-40 = 3.8 cP.

But when you look at the OEM specs it is SN, A3/B3, BMW LL-98, MB 229.3, Porsche GL. And I don't think it's just because the TBN is 9.8 instead of being something like 10.1 ( to make A3/B4 TBN)

It's not that Penrite can't make a BMW LL-01 & MB229.5 oil, as it has them, but not in the 10-Tenths range. Their MB229.5 is a group 3 (and maybe some Grp 4) oil from memory.

I think a good oil is a balancing act with competing requirements. These 10-Tenths oils work well, I've used them and so have many local people including race teams. But I don't think they are as well balanced for the average user as Mobil 1 or Castrol EDGE 0W-40. If the Penrite 10-Tenths oils are any indication, they are fine for the road, but more optimized for the race track and highly modified engines. It's a bit more of a niche market.

BTW the 10-Tenths Racing series, is even more extreme than the 10-Tenths Premium series. For example the 10W-40 Racing has 1600 ppm Zn, but it's still SN, A3/B4, MB 129.3 etc. The VI is lower, but they are claimed to be 100% shear stable.

 

[edwardh1]

wow decisions used to be , straight 30 or maybe 5w30, complicated now and no data to guide us.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: edwardh1
wow decisions used to be , straight 30 or maybe 5w30, complicated now and no data to guide us.


No data? What about the certifications the oil meets or doesn't meet that your vehicle requires?

I'd say there is a lot more information today to help guide an oil choice than there was 25 years ago. I know exactly what my vehicles need and I know which oils meet those needs and which don't.

 

[UNC017]

Originally Posted By: Garak
I'm not sure why an SRT vehicle cannot be served by a good A3/B4 lubricant.


It absolutely CAN. Mobil 1 0w40 was the SRT factory fill up until 2011 or 2012. The engines didn't change greatly at that crossover time, what did change was the contracted oil supplier (XOM to SOPUS) and lots of us continued with Mobil 1 even in the newer engines, perhaps taking a very slight risk with warranty work since it didn't carry the MS12633 fleet test certification (which most people agree any decent SN oil should pass).

I think the key is that the SRT engines don't strictly-speaking NEED some of the Euro certs, so SOPUS was able to come up with a more in-between oil for them, and it became the SRT 0w40. That's just my guess.

 

[UNC017]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

Let say suddenly you are bored and like to change your oil after going back from a shopping trip, you can just go to Walmart to pick up a couple jugs Mobil 1 0W40 for around $55-60 to change 8 quarts sump of your MB car. Can you do that with Redline 0W40 ?


Oh, I completely agree. And that's also why I favor Mobil 1 over PU SRT 0w40- the latter is not as widely available.

However, I'm really more interested in the physical and performance differences in the oils, not the "logistics tail" factors like cost and availability.

It seems like talk about Amsoil and Redline in particular has really waned in the past few years around here, and I'm curious if there's a physical/performance basis for that (ie, has Mobil 1 matched them so they're irrelevant?), or if its just that people are averse to the cost.