The Rich get richer and the Poor get......Part 2

[mikeg5]

Originally Posted By: Tempest

This in spite of unprecedented gov. spending in order "help" the "middle class".


and the middle class pays for this help.. what help is it again? i think if we wanted govt health care we would have asked for it long ago. instead we get it crammed down our throats. let the workers keep working (who is left) and let the lazy be lazy. good govt operation going on here. reminds me of unions.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: mikeg5
i think if we wanted govt health care we would have asked for it long ago. instead we get it crammed down our throats.


I think we want "fixed" healthcare... US pays 18% of GDP vs 10% in Canada... and by roping in those who complain and putting (dragging?) everyone on the same page, ironically, we may be closer to a fix.

 

[javacontour]

There are many ways we could drag folks to the same page. Suggesting that the government will not pay for anyone's health care anymore, like is the case for most of us was the fix I was looking for.

As long as someone else pays, there is no incentive to hold down costs. We've not eliminated someone else pays, we've added more someone else pays.

Costs will continue to outpace inflation, and the situation will be worse, not better.

Don't be surprised to see heath care go from 18% GDP to 27% GDP under the current plan.

 

[eljefino]

I have a coworker who was seeing an in-network physical therapist who then slipped out of network in the middle of his therapy. Hefty bills for his weekly visits showed up months later after he was all cured. There was no disclosure to him that the terms had changed, and the slow lax billing nailed him.

I hate it when my employer and I pay $1000 a month for insurance but then discover after the fact (sometimes 6-8 months after the fact) that something is not covered due to some snarky loophole. I am then left feeling that it's my fault, I didn't cross some T or dot some I, or my employer has some special ghetto plan unlike anyone elses, etc.

If we want "choice" and "market based solutions" these loopholes should be closed, standardized, and see the bright light of day, so they can be avoided by all.

 

[dwendt44]

"i think if we wanted govt health care we would have asked for it long ago."

Teddy Roosevelt talked about universal type healthcare.

That counts as 'long ago'.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: javacontour


Don't be surprised to see heath care go from 18% GDP to 27% GDP under the current plan.


Exactly. The healthcare bill was nothing but a gift to the healthcare industry and insurance industry (despite their many qualms about it). It was designed to be that way. It's yet another shakedown. It will become essentially a gigantic subsidy to private corporations under the guise of a government run system, like many required insurances are.

The "progressives" (ie. people who claim to be for the common man but actually work for corporate industry - ie. they're corrupt) would lead you to believe they want a Canadian style healthcare system in the US. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[Footpounds]

Originally Posted By: dwendt44
"i think if we wanted govt health care we would have asked for it long ago."

Teddy Roosevelt talked about universal type healthcare.

That counts as 'long ago'.



I talked about a painful rash once, but that doesn't mean I wanted it or asked for it!

 

[dhise]

Here's an interesting lecture by Elizabeth Warren on the economic statistics of the middle class from the early 70's to the early 2000's. This was presented in 2007, so I bet the numbers for today are a bit worse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A&feature=channel

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: mikeg5
i think if we wanted govt health care we would have asked for it long ago. instead we get it crammed down our throats.


I think we want "fixed" healthcare... US pays 18% of GDP vs 10% in Canada... and by roping in those who complain and putting (dragging?) everyone on the same page, ironically, we may be closer to a fix.


I have catastrophic coverage for my family - the first $1K /annum / person is totally on me, and 80% of the next $4k is on me.

Will I get to keep this coverage which I view as ideal for our needs? If not, how is forcing me to buy insurance that I don't want a "fix" of healthcare for my family? It was never broken so far as I am concerned.

And why should I have to W-9 / 1099 every person with whom I transact more than $600 of business / annum? What has that got to do with my family's healthcare, or healthcare period? A power grab is a power grab, and a well intentioned tyrant is still a tyrant. And I doubt the intentions are good to start with.

Where in the world did people get the idea that it does not or should not cost them anything to see a doctor?

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: mikeg5
Originally Posted By: Tempest

This in spite of unprecedented gov. spending in order "help" the "middle class".


and the middle class pays for this help.. what help is it again? i think if we wanted govt health care we would have asked for it long ago. instead we get it crammed down our throats. let the workers keep working (who is left) and let the lazy be lazy. good govt operation going on here. reminds me of unions.


The process for health care reform was initiated in 1912.

The majority of us did ask for health care reform and got it albeit a watered down version of what I wanted.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: javacontour


Don't be surprised to see heath care go from 18% GDP to 27% GDP under the current plan.


Exactly. The healthcare bill was nothing but a gift to the healthcare industry and insurance industry (despite their many qualms about it). It was designed to be that way. It's yet another shakedown. It will become essentially a gigantic subsidy to private corporations under the guise of a government run system, like many required insurances are.

The "progressives" (ie. people who claim to be for the common man but actually work for corporate industry - ie. they're corrupt) would lead you to believe they want a Canadian style healthcare system in the US. Nothing could be further from the truth.


I am a progressive, I am not corrupt and I wanted a universal health care coverage.

 

[motorguy222]

I know that there are those that dont have insurance and are unable to get it because of cost.I see the need for some kind of help.On the othet hand,when something is controlled and ran by the government,you get red tape and higher and higher costs and little if any actual help.I dont think that UHC (Univeral Health Care) is the answer.We have seen the effects of this in other countries that have it and in many instances,there is rationing,a lack of care and slow progress getting things done.We also have people come to the states for care that they cant get or they have to wait months to get.Canada has UHC but one of their governmnt officials came to Florida for treatment.It was also mentioned about Canadas health care was a low part of their GNP and the US was higher.What some may not realize is that the population of Canada is approx. 34 million,the US has 310 million.A huge difference and cant really be compared regarding health care costs.

We also hear that people need to get better jobs etc. but there are jobs that pay low and always will be and these are jobs that have to be done by someone.The 'get a better job' is not the answer,it is only another talking point that gets used for division.The top 5% pay 60% of the taxes in the US,should they pay more? Should people that have worked their way up be punished for making it to the top? I agree that people should pay their share but what is fair? Is it fair for a person that makes good money to give most of it to taxes? I dont think it is.Should the government tell anyone how much they can earn? There does come a point regardless of how much a person makes that they will start to spend less.Would anyone on the board,regardless of their income,want someone to come in and tell them that they are making more than they should and because of that,they will have to take a cut in pay to get them down to what everyone else is making.Would you want that? I dont think that anyone wants the government to tell them that they can only make so much.This type of system does not work and has been shown to fail over and over again,it is marxist and doesnt work and will not work.The spending in Washington cant continue as it is,it cant.The tax rates cant go high enough to keep up with the spending,they have to get some type of budget system set up.Just as the common people have to budget the feds are going to have to do the same.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
...

I hate it when my employer and I pay $1000 a month for insurance but then discover after the fact (sometimes 6-8 months after the fact) that something is not covered due to some snarky loophole. ...



Don't blame you, I'd hate that too. That's why I like my plan, I know what the cost to me is - if it's less than a thousand bucks, it's my problem. If it's less than $5000 bucks it's almost all my problem. If it's more than $5000 bucks, cancer has come back ....

Why wouldn't you just go get insurance on the open market? You probably could have got a lot better deal for less. There used to not be a law against that.

There may be now, who really knows what is in that thing.

Lucky us.

 

[VNTS]

You got health insurance reform, not health care reform.

Most people wanted more competition in the health care field and tort reform to get the lawyers out of it. This would drive down costs.
Instead all we got was more mandates on insurance companies which will drive up insurance costs and force those who have some form of coverage from their employer to pay for others who dont. Of course the businesses will now either pass those increases onto their employees or slim their work force to make up for the increased cost.

Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Originally Posted By: mikeg5
Originally Posted By: Tempest

This in spite of unprecedented gov. spending in order "help" the "middle class".


and the middle class pays for this help.. what help is it again? i think if we wanted govt health care we would have asked for it long ago. instead we get it crammed down our throats. let the workers keep working (who is left) and let the lazy be lazy. good govt operation going on here. reminds me of unions.


The process for health care reform was initiated in 1912.

The majority of us did ask for health care reform and got it albeit a watered down version of what I wanted.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan


I am a progressive, I am not corrupt and I wanted a universal health care coverage.


Fine and dandy, but the big time ones on TV and in government who claim to be progressive and for the common man, most certainly aren't. They're puppets for their corporate masters. Same with the other side. They are all mostly a coin with same sides, owned by the financial interest.

When it comes down to it, I as well am for universal health care coverage, but it will not work in this country because our government has become too corrupt with the private sector.

The new health car bill will be run just like social security. In fact, tax revenue from the bill will go to, you guess it, the social security department and any and all funds will be thrown into the general fund of the US treasury and spent, just like social security. aka, the non existent figment of imagination called the SS trust fund.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: VNTS
You got health insurance reform, not health care reform.

Most people wanted more competition in the health care field and tort reform to get the lawyers out of it. This would drive down costs.
Instead all we got was more mandates on insurance companies which will drive up insurance costs and force those who have some form of coverage from their employer to pay for others who dont. Of course the businesses will now either pass those increases onto their employees or slim their work force to make up for the increased cost.

Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Originally Posted By: mikeg5
Originally Posted By: Tempest

This in spite of unprecedented gov. spending in order "help" the "middle class".


and the middle class pays for this help.. what help is it again? i think if we wanted govt health care we would have asked for it long ago. instead we get it crammed down our throats. let the workers keep working (who is left) and let the lazy be lazy. good govt operation going on here. reminds me of unions.


The process for health care reform was initiated in 1912.

The majority of us did ask for health care reform and got it albeit a watered down version of what I wanted.


True about the health insurance reform (basically, the payer portion of the industry cannot do some of the most awful things like deny coverage or have a low 'medical loss' ratio) and not very true on the cost part (the provider portion) as the industry prepares for lower reimbursement ratios.

But obviously we will have to see what happens and how the three big components of the health care industry adapt. I just hope that the response is not going to be proliferation of high deductible plans touted above by one of the posters. High deductible plans are the stupidest idea ever for health coverage as it promotes delay in care until the illness or health problem reaches catastrophic proportions.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: CivicFan


I am a progressive, I am not corrupt and I wanted a universal health care coverage.


Fine and dandy, but the big time ones on TV and in government who claim to be progressive and for the common man, most certainly aren't. They're puppets for their corporate masters. Same with the other side. They are all mostly a coin with same sides, owned by the financial interest.

When it comes down to it, I as well am for universal health care coverage, but it will not work in this country because our government has become too corrupt with the private sector.

The new health car bill will be run just like social security. In fact, tax revenue from the bill will go to, you guess it, the social security department and any and all funds will be thrown into the general fund of the US treasury and spent, just like social security. aka, the non existent figment of imagination called the SS trust fund.


I actually agree with you.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan


The process for health care reform was initiated in 1912.



You mean the process of health care being transferred to big money interests under the guise of reform. Forcing everyone to buy health insurance when, as Win points out, many people don't want nor need what the government forces you to buy.

Hmmmmmmmm, this occured right around the time of the Federal Reserve Act.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Yeah, just more "progress" from those looking to run our lives and control as much of the economy as possible.

If this recent plan is progress, then I'm a regressive...Overturn that turd of a bill and lets talk real reform. Tort reform being at the top of the list.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan
...

I just hope that the response is not going to be proliferation of high deductible plans touted above by one of the posters. High deductible plans are the stupidest idea ever for health coverage as it promotes delay in care until the illness or health problem reaches catastrophic proportions.


LOL, can I have a couple of slices of bread and some cheese with that baloney

You know, I guess I am an anachronism. I still believe that insurance is protection against the extraordinary, and that paying for the ordinary day to day things of life, including going to a doctor, or paying for a fender bender, or the myriad other tough luck small events is my problem, not something that the entire rest of the country needs to chip in for.

Do you seriously believe that those of us with high deductible plans are just too dumb to know when we're sick and need to see a doctor? What is it with "progressives" thinking people can't be trusted to decide what to do with our own money and have to be told by someone else how to spend it?

I'm not all that old, but I can remember when health "insurance" was relatively uncommon, and it really didn't cost very much to go to a doctor or dentist. As long as someone else pays the bill, there is no incentive to cut the cost. Costs are out of control, because of insurance, imo.

Costs will only get worse, and probably far worse. I guess in a perverse way, that would work out better for me - if I have to go to a doctor (pretty rare) my deductible will be met that much faster.

BTW, do you know for a fact I can keep my high deductible, low premium, plan?