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Predicts the Chevy hybrid will fall flat with consumers

Posted by Lawrence Ulrich on Wednesday, September 2, 2009 10:07 AM

I’ve come to know Audi of America President Johan de Nysschen as a passionate advocate of fuel-sipping diesel engines. That passion was on full display when I sat with de Nysschen at a media dinner in Carneros, Calif. (after test drives of three new Audi models), during which he sharply criticized electric vehicles -- including GM’s Chevy Volt.



He dismissed GM’s upcoming plug-in hybrid as “a car for idiots,” saying that few consumers will be willing to pay $40,000 -- the Volt’s estimated base price -- for a car that competes against $25,000 sedans and conventional hybrids. Nor, he noted, is the Volt a luxury car whose green-technology costs will be excused because it also delivers prestige or performance.

“No one is going to pay a $15,000 premium for a car that competes with a (Toyota) Corolla,” he said. “So there are not enough idiots who will buy it.”

He did add that plug-in hybrids are good in concept and hold advantages over diesels in stop-and-go driving. But for the moment, de Nysschen noted, electric vehicles (EVs) are more about making a statement.

“They’re for the intellectual elite who want to show what enlightened souls they are,” he said.

De Nysschen expressed frustration with regulators and policymakers, saying the public has been hoodwinked into believing that EVs are the only answer to global warming. The U.S. government, he said, is pouring billions of dollars into EV technology, yet diesel technology could deliver a more immediate and dramatic decrease in global-warming emissions. And the man knows of what he speaks: Modern diesels already power half of Audi’s cars in Europe and have helped Audi dominate recent runnings of the 24 Hours of LeMans. Diesels have been shown to emit 25 percent less carbon dioxide than gasoline engines, while using 25 to 35 percent less fuel.

Mass electrification of cars, he argued, would result in a net increase in carbon dioxide emissions, because so much of America’s electrical grid relies on dirty coal for its energy. Cleaning up the nation’s power grid is the real priority, he said, and only then can EVs make environmental sense.

The Audi of America president ended with a bold prediction: The Volt will fall flat. And the federal government, having publicly forced GM to develop electric cars, will subsidize the Volt to save face and boost sales.

Whether that comes to pass or not, expect de Nysschen to continue to lobby Washington to ensure that diesels get their fair share of federal support.

(Photo: Johan de Nysschen; courtesy of Audi)


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#2 Today, 09:35 AM
rcg1702
2nd Gear
 
I might have to look at buying and Audi. He's saying the same thing i have for years.

Hybrids only deliver gains if driven in stop and go traffic. Disels offer far superior highway mileage than anything comparable with spark ignition.

all hybrids offer is a false sense of quiet superiority

I would look at a diesel electric hybrid though.
 
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This was already posted in another thread called "Audi CEO Going Lutz"

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/audis-ceo-is-going-lutz.114506/

Thanks for posting though...
grin2.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: Dualie
I might have to look at buying and Audi. He's saying the same thing i have for years.

Hybrids only deliver gains if driven in stop and go traffic. Disels offer far superior highway mileage than anything comparable with spark ignition.

all hybrids offer is a false sense of quiet superiority

I would look at a diesel electric hybrid though.


I consistently get over 40mpgUS in an '07 hybrid Camry...high 30's in winter...lifetime (50k miles now) fuel mileage is 39.9mpgUS...in mostly highway driving.

Are you basing your comments on personal experience?

And the car has been bullet-proof. Let's see how the German diesel setups do once the mileage starts racking up. I'd wouldn't mind driving clean diesel myself, but I'm not gonna be a beta tester for VW and Audi.

It doesn't take much in the way of maintenance and repair costs to quickly offset fuel savings. That applies to hybrids as well.
 
Exactly what is preventing Audi from bringing diesel to States? Are they waiting for government handout?

- Vikas
 
I guess it's the same thing that's preventing Ford from offering all their fantastic Euopean diesel products here. I just don't know what that would be. Cost?
 
I thought I heard they were having a hard time getting diesels to pass the emissions standards for passenger cars.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I thought I heard they were having a hard time getting diesels to pass the emissions standards for passenger cars.


Yep, correct. Euro diesels are not engineered to operate in the US. It is expensive to modify their engines to meet US federal emissions standards, and there is no assurance that US sales will offset those costs.

Euro diesel cars are expensive compared to small cars most Americans buy now. Why should Ford spend a ton of money modifying a small diesel when it won't sell in the US?

As long as gas prices remain fairly low, you will never see a Euro diesel small car sold in any volume in the US. Drive fuel prices past $5.00 per gallon permanently, then maybe you have a small market. Beyond that, forget Euro diesel cars.
 
For my money I still prefer a simple efficient gas engine like in a Honda Fit, or a modern clean diesel over a hybrid. Sure the hybrids and electrics have lots of promise but I prefer the well developed reliability of proven technology.
 
Originally Posted By: Ed_T
Originally Posted By: Dualie
I might have to look at buying and Audi. He's saying the same thing i have for years.

Hybrids only deliver gains if driven in stop and go traffic. Disels offer far superior highway mileage than anything comparable with spark ignition.

all hybrids offer is a false sense of quiet superiority

I would look at a diesel electric hybrid though.


I consistently get over 40mpgUS in an '07 hybrid Camry...high 30's in winter...lifetime (50k miles now) fuel mileage is 39.9mpgUS...in mostly highway driving.

Are you basing your comments on personal experience?

And the car has been bullet-proof. Let's see how the German diesel setups do once the mileage starts racking up. I'd wouldn't mind driving clean diesel myself, but I'm not gonna be a beta tester for VW and Audi.

It doesn't take much in the way of maintenance and repair costs to quickly offset fuel savings. That applies to hybrids as well.


I drive a non-hybrid 2000 Saturn SL with almost 105K on it. I consistently get 35-37 city and 42-44 mpg highway with a 9 year old car!
 
Originally Posted By: Saturn_Fan

I drive a non-hybrid 2000 Saturn SL with almost 105K on it. I consistently get 35-37 city and 42-44 mpg highway with a 9 year old car!

The difference is your old Saturn pollutes more than any new car.
My brother's 1998 Honda Civic got 50MPGs highway, the new ones get around 40-42 with normal driving.
 
Originally Posted By: cjhepburn

The difference is your old Saturn pollutes more than any new car.


Not by very much....there is no comparison between a 1988 and 2000 vehicle for emissions but the difference between a 2000 and 2010 is very small.
 
Originally Posted By: Ed_T
Originally Posted By: Dualie
I might have to look at buying and Audi. He's saying the same thing i have for years.

Hybrids only deliver gains if driven in stop and go traffic. Disels offer far superior highway mileage than anything comparable with spark ignition.

all hybrids offer is a false sense of quiet superiority

I would look at a diesel electric hybrid though.


I consistently get over 40mpgUS in an '07 hybrid Camry...high 30's in winter...lifetime (50k miles now) fuel mileage is 39.9mpgUS...in mostly highway driving.

Are you basing your comments on personal experience?

And the car has been bullet-proof. Let's see how the German diesel setups do once the mileage starts racking up. I'd wouldn't mind driving clean diesel myself, but I'm not gonna be a beta tester for VW and Audi.

It doesn't take much in the way of maintenance and repair costs to quickly offset fuel savings. That applies to hybrids as well.


yes i made the same trip with a friend in their G2 prius from SF bay area to Medford Oregon in 2007 as i did in a VW TDI Jetta in 2008. The jetta gave 46 Mpg's cruzing along @ 70-75 mph while the prius only returned 36 doing the same. same real world conditions (un godly hot 101+ through the valley) with near zero wind on both trips.

Honestly the prius was everything BUT impressive in the hills and mountains and the TDI really shined when we started climbing. The prius barely had any time to regenerate its battery's between hill climbs and often needed full throttle to maintain 65 mph often times struggling to do so.
 
The guy from Audi is way off the mark, in my opinion. Diesel fuel is very dirty, and it took the U.S. Government to put new standards on diesel fuel to lower sulphur emissions and to "clean up the diesel fuel." It is still dirtier than unleaded gasoline. Diesel still needs to be "cleaned up" some more, but that will cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...........
 
Originally Posted By: cjhepburn
Originally Posted By: Saturn_Fan

I drive a non-hybrid 2000 Saturn SL with almost 105K on it. I consistently get 35-37 city and 42-44 mpg highway with a 9 year old car!

The difference is your old Saturn pollutes more than any new car.
My brother's 1998 Honda Civic got 50MPGs highway, the new ones get around 40-42 with normal driving.

OK, now I'm confused. For several years, I've been hearing the argument that pollution is caused by how much fuel a vehicle burns (i.e., those nasty, evil SUV's).

So, please to explain, how a 9-year-old Saturn getting, say 35mpg is cranking out more pollution than a 2009 [insert your favorite car here] getting 35mpg....?
21.gif
 
Originally Posted By: opus1
Originally Posted By: cjhepburn
Originally Posted By: Saturn_Fan

I drive a non-hybrid 2000 Saturn SL with almost 105K on it. I consistently get 35-37 city and 42-44 mpg highway with a 9 year old car!

The difference is your old Saturn pollutes more than any new car.
My brother's 1998 Honda Civic got 50MPGs highway, the new ones get around 40-42 with normal driving.

OK, now I'm confused. For several years, I've been hearing the argument that pollution is caused by how much fuel a vehicle burns (i.e., those nasty, evil SUV's).

So, please to explain, how a 9-year-old Saturn getting, say 35mpg is cranking out more pollution than a 2009 [insert your favorite car here] getting 35mpg....?
21.gif



A new Civic is getting 42 mpg with normal driving?

Driver's are reporting an average of 33.9, so Cjhepburn, I think you are fibbing here a bit to try and make your point.
 
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Mileage isn't necessarily linked to pollution levels.

A 10 year old car with 10 year old emission components which were less efficient in their design compared to today and/or have lost some efficiency with age will pollute more than a new car of today even if the MPG is the same for both vehicles.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Mileage isn't necessarily linked to pollution levels.

A 10 year old car with 10 year old emission components which were less efficient in their design compared to today and/or have lost some efficiency with age will pollute more than a new car of today even if the MPG is the same for both vehicles.
wink.gif


^^ This

Case in point: the current Porsche 911 Turbo. Low emissions, mediocre fuel economy...
 
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