The Level Field Instiute

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Java....How about addressing the fact that the domestics employ 20 times as many R&D people here in the States vs the transplants?

How about the fact that GM employs as many Americans here in the States as ALL of the transplants COMBINED?

I don't understand how these aren't vital statistics to anyone who wants to support domestic jobs.

The problem with the content stickers is that it ignores the R&D side of things. This site is just adding in that factor to the already labor weighted content numbers.


See above. They may employ 20x more, but what percentage of their total design team is that?

You don't think Ford in Europe has nearly the same number of designers? Why should Ford get a pass for employing engineers world-wide, but an Asian car maker is criticized for doing the same?

That's why I want to see figures like total world wide employment for all concerned and compare things like US employment vs World Wide employment, and ditto for US sales vs world wide sales.

If a car makers employment ratio is in line with it's sale ratio, then that means they are spreading the jobs to the markets where they sell the cars.

Apply that standard when judging.

Just looking at a total number of jobs is meaningless without seeing it in the bigger picture.

 

[Norse]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I truly don't undeertand the "buy American" or whatever concept. I mean, it's not like Ford and GM are selling their cars in NA only. What if Europe, China and Autralia had the same mentality?



That would be fine. You should support your own industry first.

[censored] if I lived in Australia I'd buy a Holden --- no problem.

 

[bepperb]

"Look at our trade deficit for the answer to your question."

You think the answer to the trade deficit is to close our doors to imports, or increase exports?

Because, we can't really close our doors to competition and expect our exports to increase at the same time.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I guess the other problem I have is with things like this. I compared the Toyota Corolla, until recently made in a UAW plant in CA (Both GM and Toyota pulled out of that plant, but apparently GM didn't take the beating that Toyota took for leaving, bias?)

Anyway, the problem with the calculation is the Corolla, made in the US with 65% domestic content scores lower than the Ford Fusion, made in Mexico (last time I checked, NOT the US nor staffed with UAW labor) scores almost 3x higher.

So instead of looking at individual cars, they are largely taking a car-maker as a whole.

So while an interesting device, I'm not sure how valid it is when it comes to choosing a particular vehicle.

I think a more accurate figure would be to figure how many are employed by each car maker, worldwide. After all GM, Ford and Chrysler all have offices and engineering done world wide, not just the Asian car makers, and look at world wide sales, world wide employment, where a car is made, domestic content etc.

Cars like the Focus and the Ford Contour were largely designed in Europe. Same could be said for the Transit Connect, designed in Europe, built in Turkey, shipped here and sold at your local Ford dealer.

So while I understand what they are trying to do, I'm not sure they paint an accurate picture of what is really going on in the auto industry.


I saw a window sticker on a Corolla recently and the parts content is 55%. Any way you slice it, this wouldn't even be an issue or talking point if the consumer watched what he bought and left the imports rotting on the lot.


Well then why do you trust that website? Because the 65% figure comes from the very website you are touting.

I think we ARE where we ARE because the consumer watched what they bought and for many, they had better luck with the Asian imports compared to their "domestic" counterparts.

Doesn't mean it will stay that way. But for many, that has been their experience, and as I've said time and time again, instead of bashing someone, claiming they are dumb because they made a buying decision (Which by the way is a sure fire way to lose the argument) make a solid case for your view.

How do you convince the guy/gal who was a GM buyer from age 16 until his/her mid-late 30's who got fed up with major problems before 100K miles, who then looked at Honda or Toyota and had far fewer problems?

Your arguments about numbers of jobs really are not going to fly with someone who had to overhaul transmissions or head gaskets before 100K miles on his/her GM and did NOT have the same experience with his/her Camry or Accord.

Maybe the same will happen with Toyota? Who knows.

I think Ford is on the right track. They are making GREAT cars right now. However, the ones I'd be interested in probably will not be made in the US.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Look people can buy whatever they want, I really couldn't care less. But dont spit in my face and tell me it's raining.

It's the comments that I see all the time, like "my Corrola is more American than your Mexican built whatever".....It just isn't true and it ignores all the other employees that are engaged in desinging and building that Mexican whatever.

It's the transplant supporters who want it both ways. They want to claim domestic status for their Camry or Accord while ignoring the lost revenues in profit and the large number of jobs overseas designing and marketing their "domestic" Accord/Camry.


Ford has had operations and employees in Europe since almost the beginning. They compete on a world stage against competitors, some with slave wages at their advantage. I've asked over and over again, but no one seems to want to answer. Why should Ford employ everyone here in the States? Why is it expected of the domestics but never of the trnasplants. I ask you, what would you have them do? In the present market, and with their current competitors, what would you suggest they do? Build ALL their cars here in the States, would you suggest Honda and Toy do the same?

 

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I guess the other problem I have is with things like this. I compared the Toyota Corolla, until recently made in a UAW plant in CA (Both GM and Toyota pulled out of that plant, but apparently GM didn't take the beating that Toyota took for leaving, bias?)

Anyway, the problem with the calculation is the Corolla, made in the US with 65% domestic content scores lower than the Ford Fusion, made in Mexico (last time I checked, NOT the US nor staffed with UAW labor) scores almost 3x higher.

So instead of looking at individual cars, they are largely taking a car-maker as a whole.

So while an interesting device, I'm not sure how valid it is when it comes to choosing a particular vehicle.

I think a more accurate figure would be to figure how many are employed by each car maker, worldwide. After all GM, Ford and Chrysler all have offices and engineering done world wide, not just the Asian car makers, and look at world wide sales, world wide employment, where a car is made, domestic content etc.

Cars like the Focus and the Ford Contour were largely designed in Europe. Same could be said for the Transit Connect, designed in Europe, built in Turkey, shipped here and sold at your local Ford dealer.

So while I understand what they are trying to do, I'm not sure they paint an accurate picture of what is really going on in the auto industry.


I saw a window sticker on a Corolla recently and the parts content is 55%. Any way you slice it, this wouldn't even be an issue or talking point if the consumer watched what he bought and left the imports rotting on the lot.


Well then why do you trust that website? Because the 65% figure comes from the very website you are touting.

I think we ARE where we ARE because the consumer watched what they bought and for many, they had better luck with the Asian imports compared to their "domestic" counterparts.

Doesn't mean it will stay that way. But for many, that has been their experience, and as I've said time and time again, instead of bashing someone, claiming they are dumb because they made a buying decision (Which by the way is a sure fire way to lose the argument) make a solid case for your view.

How do you convince the guy/gal who was a GM buyer from age 16 until his/her mid-late 30's who got fed up with major problems before 100K miles, who then looked at Honda or Toyota and had far fewer problems?

Your arguments about numbers of jobs really are not going to fly with someone who had to overhaul transmissions or head gaskets before 100K miles on his/her GM and did NOT have the same experience with his/her Camry or Accord.

Maybe the same will happen with Toyota? Who knows.

I think Ford is on the right track. They are making GREAT cars right now. However, the ones I'd be interested in probably will not be made in the US.


The 65% domestic content has changed to 55. And I didn't say anyone was dumb, I said they can't handle the truth. And that's a fact, from the shrill responses you have given me.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Look people can buy whatever they want, I really couldn't care less. But dont spit in my face and tell me it's raining.

It's the comments that I see all the time, like "my Corrola is more American than your Mexican built whatever".....It just isn't true and it ignores all the other employees that are engaged in desinging and building that Mexican whatever.

It's the transplant supporters who want it both ways. They want to claim domestic status for their Camry or Accord while ignoring the lost revenues in profit and the large number of jobs overseas designing and marketing their "domestic" Accord/Camry.



But who is looking out for the lost revenues of the Camry/Accord owners who had to replace those engines and transmissions?

I'm willing to look out for the American Auto Worker. Where is my check for the transmission in my ex-wife's Pontiac Sunbird, or the not one, but two sets of head gaskets we had to put in that car before 80K miles.

Or how about the transmission and jumped timing chain in my Buick LeSabre. Who is looking out for me and my family with respect to those issues?

Certainly not the domestic auto industry.

So now you want to cry that I'm doing damage to them by owning three Toyotas, two with over 200K miles and one almost to 250K?

Please.

I'll look out for them with the same watchful eye they used when looking out for me and my purchases in past years.

In other words, it's not my job to protect their jobs. If it's not their job to make sure my car is relatively trouble free for 250K miles, then it's not my job to be concerned about their jobs.

 

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
"Look at our trade deficit for the answer to your question."

You think the answer to the trade deficit is to close our doors to imports, or increase exports?

Because, we can't really close our doors to competition and expect our exports to increase at the same time.


Japan does it. After all, the USA has the consumer market everybody wants. It wouldn't hurt us one bit if we bought our own products. It can only help lower our deficit.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I guess the other problem I have is with things like this. I compared the Toyota Corolla, until recently made in a UAW plant in CA (Both GM and Toyota pulled out of that plant, but apparently GM didn't take the beating that Toyota took for leaving, bias?)

Anyway, the problem with the calculation is the Corolla, made in the US with 65% domestic content scores lower than the Ford Fusion, made in Mexico (last time I checked, NOT the US nor staffed with UAW labor) scores almost 3x higher.

So instead of looking at individual cars, they are largely taking a car-maker as a whole.

So while an interesting device, I'm not sure how valid it is when it comes to choosing a particular vehicle.

I think a more accurate figure would be to figure how many are employed by each car maker, worldwide. After all GM, Ford and Chrysler all have offices and engineering done world wide, not just the Asian car makers, and look at world wide sales, world wide employment, where a car is made, domestic content etc.

Cars like the Focus and the Ford Contour were largely designed in Europe. Same could be said for the Transit Connect, designed in Europe, built in Turkey, shipped here and sold at your local Ford dealer.

So while I understand what they are trying to do, I'm not sure they paint an accurate picture of what is really going on in the auto industry.


I saw a window sticker on a Corolla recently and the parts content is 55%. Any way you slice it, this wouldn't even be an issue or talking point if the consumer watched what he bought and left the imports rotting on the lot.


Well then why do you trust that website? Because the 65% figure comes from the very website you are touting.

I think we ARE where we ARE because the consumer watched what they bought and for many, they had better luck with the Asian imports compared to their "domestic" counterparts.

Doesn't mean it will stay that way. But for many, that has been their experience, and as I've said time and time again, instead of bashing someone, claiming they are dumb because they made a buying decision (Which by the way is a sure fire way to lose the argument) make a solid case for your view.

How do you convince the guy/gal who was a GM buyer from age 16 until his/her mid-late 30's who got fed up with major problems before 100K miles, who then looked at Honda or Toyota and had far fewer problems?

Your arguments about numbers of jobs really are not going to fly with someone who had to overhaul transmissions or head gaskets before 100K miles on his/her GM and did NOT have the same experience with his/her Camry or Accord.

Maybe the same will happen with Toyota? Who knows.

I think Ford is on the right track. They are making GREAT cars right now. However, the ones I'd be interested in probably will not be made in the US.


The 65% domestic content has changed to 55.


Not according to the Level Playing Institute:

Quote:

Make/Model:
Corolla
Domestic Content: 65%
Assembly Location: N. America

Manufacturer: Toyota
Direct employment (# US Jobs) 34,000
Percent of U.S. Auto Jobs: 9.2%
% of Cars Sold In U.S.
That Are Made in U.S. 16.3%
Number of US plants: 3

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: bepperb
"Look at our trade deficit for the answer to your question."

You think the answer to the trade deficit is to close our doors to imports, or increase exports?

Because, we can't really close our doors to competition and expect our exports to increase at the same time.


Japan does it. After all, the USA has the consumer market everybody wants. It wouldn't hurt us one bit if we bought our own products. It can only help lower our deficit.


OK, let's start with OIL! Stop importing oil and where does the trade deficit go?

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Norse


[censored] if I lived in Australia I'd buy a Holden --- no problem.


Hey now, I live in America and I LOVE my Holden....lol.....and the profits it brought to GM.

 

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: cousincletus

I guess the other problem I have is with things like this. I compared the Toyota Corolla, until recently made in a UAW plant in CA (Both GM and Toyota pulled out of that plant, but apparently GM didn't take the beating that Toyota took for leaving, bias?)

Anyway, the problem with the calculation is the Corolla, made in the US with 65% domestic content scores lower than the Ford Fusion, made in Mexico (last time I checked, NOT the US nor staffed with UAW labor) scores almost 3x higher.

So instead of looking at individual cars, they are largely taking a car-maker as a whole.

So while an interesting device, I'm not sure how valid it is when it comes to choosing a particular vehicle.

I think a more accurate figure would be to figure how many are employed by each car maker, worldwide. After all GM, Ford and Chrysler all have offices and engineering done world wide, not just the Asian car makers, and look at world wide sales, world wide employment, where a car is made, domestic content etc.

Cars like the Focus and the Ford Contour were largely designed in Europe. Same could be said for the Transit Connect, designed in Europe, built in Turkey, shipped here and sold at your local Ford dealer.

So while I understand what they are trying to do, I'm not sure they paint an accurate picture of what is really going on in the auto industry.


I saw a window sticker on a Corolla recently and the parts content is 55%. Any way you slice it, this wouldn't even be an issue or talking point if the consumer watched what he bought and left the imports rotting on the lot.


Well then why do you trust that website? Because the 65% figure comes from the very website you are touting.

I think we ARE where we ARE because the consumer watched what they bought and for many, they had better luck with the Asian imports compared to their "domestic" counterparts.

Doesn't mean it will stay that way. But for many, that has been their experience, and as I've said time and time again, instead of bashing someone, claiming they are dumb because they made a buying decision (Which by the way is a sure fire way to lose the argument) make a solid case for your view.

How do you convince the guy/gal who was a GM buyer from age 16 until his/her mid-late 30's who got fed up with major problems before 100K miles, who then looked at Honda or Toyota and had far fewer problems?

Your arguments about numbers of jobs really are not going to fly with someone who had to overhaul transmissions or head gaskets before 100K miles on his/her GM and did NOT have the same experience with his/her Camry or Accord.

Maybe the same will happen with Toyota? Who knows.

I think Ford is on the right track. They are making GREAT cars right now. However, the ones I'd be interested in probably will not be made in the US.


The 65% domestic content has changed to 55.


Not according to the Level Playing Institute:

Quote:

Make/Model:
Corolla
Domestic Content: 65%
Assembly Location: N. America

Manufacturer: Toyota
Direct employment (# US Jobs) 34,000
Percent of U.S. Auto Jobs: 9.2%
% of Cars Sold In U.S.
That Are Made in U.S. 16.3%
Number of US plants: 3

Hello?! I just stated the info has changed. It's not up to date for 2010 model year.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Norse


[censored] if I lived in Australia I'd buy a Holden --- no problem.


Hey now, I live in America and I LOVE my Holden....lol.....and the profits it brought to GM.


Profits? Is GM turning a profit yet? I thought only Ford and Hyundai (and maybe a few others) were turning a profit.

Even Toyota has been posting losses.

So has GM even turned a profit recently?

 

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: bepperb
"Look at our trade deficit for the answer to your question."

You think the answer to the trade deficit is to close our doors to imports, or increase exports?

Because, we can't really close our doors to competition and expect our exports to increase at the same time.


Japan does it. After all, the USA has the consumer market everybody wants. It wouldn't hurt us one bit if we bought our own products. It can only help lower our deficit.


OK, let's start with OIL! Stop importing oil and where does the trade deficit go?


I'm all for using less oil and ridding ourselves of dependence on other countries. But we still make cars, and have a choice. If I had my way I wouldn't buy anything imported, but some things we have no choice.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Java....You prove once again you are the King of the Straw Man argument.


Nobodies crying about what you buy, they are declaring that it isn't as American as you guys constantly throw in our faces. Simple, buy what you want, but dont expect others to buy your rationalizations for doing so.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: bepperb
"Look at our trade deficit for the answer to your question."

You think the answer to the trade deficit is to close our doors to imports, or increase exports?

Because, we can't really close our doors to competition and expect our exports to increase at the same time.


Japan does it. After all, the USA has the consumer market everybody wants. It wouldn't hurt us one bit if we bought our own products. It can only help lower our deficit.


OK, let's start with OIL! Stop importing oil and where does the trade deficit go?


I'm all for using less oil and ridding ourselves of dependence on other countries. But we still make cars, and have a choice. If I had my way I wouldn't buy anything imported, but some things we have no choice.


Using 2007 figures:

Oil Imports: 4,461,727,000 barrels
Avg 2007 Price/Barrel: $64.20

$286,442,873,400

2007 Trade Deficit $708.5 Billion.

Oil Imports are about 1/3 of the total trade deficit.

What percentage of that trade deficit is imported automobiles?

 

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Look people can buy whatever they want, I really couldn't care less. But dont spit in my face and tell me it's raining.

It's the comments that I see all the time, like "my Corrola is more American than your Mexican built whatever".....It just isn't true and it ignores all the other employees that are engaged in desinging and building that Mexican whatever.

It's the transplant supporters who want it both ways. They want to claim domestic status for their Camry or Accord while ignoring the lost revenues in profit and the large number of jobs overseas designing and marketing their "domestic" Accord/Camry.



But who is looking out for the lost revenues of the Camry/Accord owners who had to replace those engines and transmissions?

I'm willing to look out for the American Auto Worker. Where is my check for the transmission in my ex-wife's Pontiac Sunbird, or the not one, but two sets of head gaskets we had to put in that car before 80K miles.

Or how about the transmission and jumped timing chain in my Buick LeSabre. Who is looking out for me and my family with respect to those issues?

Certainly not the domestic auto industry.

So now you want to cry that I'm doing damage to them by owning three Toyotas, two with over 200K miles and one almost to 250K?

Please.

I'll look out for them with the same watchful eye they used when looking out for me and my purchases in past years.

In other words, it's not my job to protect their jobs. If it's not their job to make sure my car is relatively trouble free for 250K miles, then it's not my job to be concerned about their jobs.


Don't think the foreign brands are trouble free either. Honda transmissions, Toyota head gaskets and sludge, etc. It's just a shame you aren't concerned more about American auto worker's jobs and I wish you wouldn't think that way. However, I disagree with you and that's that. You have your opinion, I have mine. I just feel mine's right and better for my country.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Java....You prove once again you are the King of the Straw Man argument.


Nobodies crying about what you buy, they are declaring that it isn't as American as you guys constantly throw in our faces. Simple, buy what you want, but dont expect others to buy your rationalizations for doing so.


Actually, there ARE folks in this thread crying about what I buy. If you are saying it's "not as American" the implication is that one isn't a good citizen if they don't buy an American car.

Really? Is that in the Constitution?

What is American is FREEDOM. There is nothing more American than the freedom to buy whatever suits you.

Sadly, what has become FASHIONABLE is to bash Americans, and to decry their FREEDOMS and to claim that those who are exercising those FREEDOMS somehow are less Americans than others who choose to exercise those FREEDOMS in a different fashion.

I asked a legitimate question before. What will it take to win back those customer who for decades bought domestic and had enough?

Do you think calling into question their patriotism will do it?

Do you think accusing them of "not thinking" will do it?

As I've said before, the HARDEST customer to win is one you've lost.

You certainly don't win them back by attacking them.

You certainly don't win them back by saying, "Buy American" while off-shoring more and more of your jobs.

I really think that this website will make those who are committed domestic car buyers feel good about their decisions. I really don't think it will influence many car buyers to change what they are going to buy.

 

[bepperb]

cousincletus,

I have been to Japan. If you are under any sort of impression that US goods aren't sold there, I hate to destroy that. You can't walk six blocks without passing a Dennys, McDonalds and a KFC. Levis jeans. I saw Harleys. Budweiser actually cost more than Heiniken. Coca cola. And converse shoes everywhere.

No american cars, though. Actually, one Camaro and a Tacoma. The taco was LHD, reverse imported.

And before you assume my love of foreign cars is because I'm asian, I'm a 6' blue eyed irish guy. You'd have no problem picking me out in any pictures, which probably include a mcd's and a pepsi billboard in the background somewhere.

Sorry to get off topic, but the impression that Japan is a guarded import-unfriendly nation is absurd. US japan trade imbalance is ~ 40 billion a year. Most of that is because nobody in the US can build a decent TV, and increasingly a camera either.

 

[cousincletus]

Using 2007 figures:

Oil Imports: 4,461,727,000 barrels
Avg 2007 Price/Barrel: $64.20

$286,442,873,400

2007 Trade Deficit $708.5 Billion.

Oil Imports are about 1/3 of the total trade deficit.

What percentage of that trade deficit is imported automobiles?

[/quote]



That's a good question and I have no idea what the answer is to that, but we're starting to drift off subject. The topic of discussion is US jobs in the auto industry.