The Level Field Instiute

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Originally Posted By: bepperb
cousincletus,

I have been to Japan. If you are under any sort of impression that US goods aren't sold there, I hate to destroy that. You can't walk six blocks without passing a Dennys, McDonalds and a KFC. Levis jeans. I saw Harleys. Budweiser actually cost more than Heiniken. Coca cola. And converse shoes everywhere.

No american cars, though. Actually, one Camaro and a Tacoma. The taco was LHD, reverse imported.

And before you assume my love of foreign cars is because I'm asian, I'm a 6' blue eyed irish guy. You'd have no problem picking me out in any pictures, which probably include a mcd's and a pepsi billboard in the background somewhere.

Sorry to get off topic, but the impression that Japan is a guarded import-unfriendly nation is absurd.


Then if you know so much about Japan, what is our deficit in trade with them. We are talking about US auto jobs here, not other businesses in Japan.
 
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
And I didn't say anyone was dumb, I said they can't handle the truth. And that's a fact, from the shrill responses you have given me.

I picked this out as a typical statement, but the following goes for half the people in this thread:


Pro Tip #1: Don't say you're not calling people dumb when in the same sentence you call them willfully ignorant.

Pro Tip #2: Try to have the humility to understand that disagreeing with you or questioning your logic are not the same as denying the truth.

Pro Tip #3: Don't cry about shrill responses when you can't make a single post that isn't inflammatory in tone or content.


Try those things, and then maybe we can have a reasonable discussion. Otherwise, all you're doing is stirring the pot and marking yourself out as someone who is either unequipped or unprepared to participate constructively.
 
cousincletus,

I read your mind and edited my post at the exact moment you were typing yours. For reference, our china imbalance is well over 200 billion a year.
 
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Look people can buy whatever they want, I really couldn't care less. But dont spit in my face and tell me it's raining.

It's the comments that I see all the time, like "my Corrola is more American than your Mexican built whatever".....It just isn't true and it ignores all the other employees that are engaged in desinging and building that Mexican whatever.

It's the transplant supporters who want it both ways. They want to claim domestic status for their Camry or Accord while ignoring the lost revenues in profit and the large number of jobs overseas designing and marketing their "domestic" Accord/Camry.



But who is looking out for the lost revenues of the Camry/Accord owners who had to replace those engines and transmissions?

I'm willing to look out for the American Auto Worker. Where is my check for the transmission in my ex-wife's Pontiac Sunbird, or the not one, but two sets of head gaskets we had to put in that car before 80K miles.

Or how about the transmission and jumped timing chain in my Buick LeSabre. Who is looking out for me and my family with respect to those issues?

Certainly not the domestic auto industry.

So now you want to cry that I'm doing damage to them by owning three Toyotas, two with over 200K miles and one almost to 250K?

Please.

I'll look out for them with the same watchful eye they used when looking out for me and my purchases in past years.

In other words, it's not my job to protect their jobs. If it's not their job to make sure my car is relatively trouble free for 250K miles, then it's not my job to be concerned about their jobs.


Don't think the foreign brands are trouble free either. Honda transmissions, Toyota head gaskets and sludge, etc. It's just a shame you aren't concerned more about American auto worker's jobs and I wish you wouldn't think that way. However, I disagree with you and that's that. You have your opinion, I have mine. I just feel mine's right and better for my country.


And I feel my choices are best for both my country and my family.

Tell me again, why am I supposed to be more concerned about folks who apparently are not really concerned about me?

You keep citing this concern for the American Auto Worker, yet I've still not received any sort of check, thank you note, sorry you had so much trouble, not from them.

That's just it. I'm not concerned with ANY automaker. If Toyota goes out of business tomorrow, I'll not shed a tear. If GM goes out of business, I'll not cheer. It's business. Business rises and falls everyday.

My employer was bought out.

Are you concerned for those who are getting let go? Did you buy a computer from my employer?

It's business.

My ability to care is being eroded by everyone seeming to want me to care about their pet cause.

You name it, be concerned for the folks in Haiti or Chile, healthcare for the poor who don't have it, concern for those who get knocked up in high school and have kids out of wedlock, concern for those who partied during school and now can't get a good job because they dropped out, or barely passed.

Frankly, my ability to care has been worn thin.

I'm tired of everyone expecting me to support their pet cause.

Who is looking out for me?

Where were folks when my ex-wife had an affair and she got the child? They weren't looking out for me.

No, I was treated with suspicion because I was a divorced dad. She was treated as a victim because she was/is a single mom.

Even my church looked at me that way.

Frankly, my ability to care for others has been worn away by too many wanting me to worry about them and their cause and too few willing to take up the mantle of my cause.

My state wants to raise taxes. My federal government wants larger and larger programs, and I'm called un American because I drive a 250K mile 16 year old Chevy made by Toyota using UAW labor.

Sheesh!

I just can't care for others right now!
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
And I didn't say anyone was dumb, I said they can't handle the truth. And that's a fact, from the shrill responses you have given me.

Pro Tip #1: Don't say you're not calling people dumb when in the same sentence you call them willfully ignorant.

Pro Tip #2: Try to have the humility to understand that disagreeing with you is not the same thing as denying the truth.

Pro Tip #3: Don't cry about shrill responses when you can't make a single post that isn't inflammatory in tone or content.


Try those things, and then maybe we can have a reasonable discussion. Otherwise, all you're doing is stirring the pot and marking yourself out as someone who is either unequipped or unprepared to participate constructively.


The fact is you can disagree about this issue, but wrong is wrong. Buying foreign autos costs American jobs. I didn't call anybody ignorant, but again, the truth is the truth. No matter what I say (or Level field) some folks just can't be reached. I have worked in this industry, so I am as well equipped to discuss it as anyone.
 
Originally Posted By: javacontour
You brought up trade deficit if I recall, so why not bring some facts into the discussion?


Wow, this is going nowhere real fast. The trade deficit caused by the sale of foreign cars. That is on subject.
 
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
And I didn't say anyone was dumb, I said they can't handle the truth. And that's a fact, from the shrill responses you have given me.

Pro Tip #1: Don't say you're not calling people dumb when in the same sentence you call them willfully ignorant.

Pro Tip #2: Try to have the humility to understand that disagreeing with you is not the same thing as denying the truth.

Pro Tip #3: Don't cry about shrill responses when you can't make a single post that isn't inflammatory in tone or content.


Try those things, and then maybe we can have a reasonable discussion. Otherwise, all you're doing is stirring the pot and marking yourself out as someone who is either unequipped or unprepared to participate constructively.


The fact is you can disagree about this issue, but wrong is wrong. Buying foreign autos costs American jobs. I didn't call anybody ignorant, but again, the truth is the truth. No matter what I say some folks just can't be reached. I have worked in this industry, so I am as well equipped to discuss it as anyone.


But facts and truth are often different things.

You've been asked to support your assertion of truth with facts.

So provide some facts, such as what are the values of cars imported and exported. I.E. what is the automotive trade deficit.

That way, we can see the magnitude of the problem. If we are importing $300B more in cars than we export, then it's as big as oil. If we import $20B in cars more than we export, then it's a small part of a much bigger problem.
 
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
It's just a shame you aren't concerned more about American auto worker's jobs and I wish you wouldn't think that way. However, I disagree with you and that's that. You have your opinion, I have mine. I just feel mine's right and better for my country.

Keep hammering at this all you want, but at least have the self-respect not to hide behind political correctness. Either you feel he has a right to his opinion, or you don't.
 
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
I'm sincerely sorry you are having problems, Java. I know I am passionate about American jobs, but I come across as being harsh.


Oh, I'm not having problems now. Maybe 7 years ago.

But the thing is, who cared? You want me to care about the auto workers. My ability to care is just plain worn out.

Chrysler doesn't care about the auto workers here in St. Louis. They closed/are closing both the Fenton North and Fenton South plants.

So you can get your Ram Trucks from Mexico now and you Minivans from Canada.

But I'm supposed to care about the American auto industry?

How about Ford? They closed the Explorer plant here, and chose to make the Fusion in Mexico instead of here or anywhere else stateside.

Are they building the Transit Connect here? How about the new Fiesta?

Look, I'm "concerned" but I'm also pragmatic. It doesn't seem to matter. So I buy stock in whomever is turning a profit and do what is best for me and my family.

But don't try to win me by saying I should care. Maybe I should. But then again, where were all of those who should have cared when I went through my troubles? You know, cars that self destructed, families that self-destructed, churches that didn't care, a legal system more interested in the status-quo than what is best for families?

There is too much competition for my ability to care today, and not enough competition for folks who want to care for me.
 
I see a lot of bar graphs and blah, blah blah to make the unions feel good as they are forced to shorten the coffee breaks. There employers are barely clinging to life. Where is the fact & fiction institute? Its a crying shame whats happening to all. Union vs Ford, Union vs GM, Union vs Chiseler, Union vs corporate America
 
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Norse


[censored] if I lived in Australia I'd buy a Holden --- no problem.


Hey now, I live in America and I LOVE my Holden....lol.....and the profits it brought to GM.


Yea, I know I was just waiting to see if anyone would pick that up ... In other words I wanted to know who the REAL cars guys were.
 
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
I'm sincerely sorry you are having problems, Java. I know I am passionate about American jobs, but I come across as being harsh.


Oh, I'm not having problems now. Maybe 7 years ago.

But the thing is, who cared? You want me to care about the auto workers. My ability to care is just plain worn out.

Chrysler doesn't care about the auto workers here in St. Louis. They closed/are closing both the Fenton North and Fenton South plants.

So you can get your Ram Trucks from Mexico now and you Minivans from Canada.

But I'm supposed to care about the American auto industry?

How about Ford? They closed the Explorer plant here, and chose to make the Fusion in Mexico instead of here or anywhere else stateside.

Are they building the Transit Connect here? How about the new Fiesta?

Look, I'm "concerned" but I'm also pragmatic. It doesn't seem to matter. So I buy stock in whomever is turning a profit and do what is best for me and my family.

But don't try to win me by saying I should care. Maybe I should. But then again, where were all of those who should have cared when I went through my troubles? You know, cars that self destructed, families that self-destructed, churches that didn't care, a legal system more interested in the status-quo than what is best for families?

There is too much competition for my ability to care today, and not enough competition for folks who want to care for me.


Fellow Veteran, I care about you, as I know you would care about me. We both stuck our necks out for our country, and perhaps we didn't get enough thanks from our own, but I do care about you.
 
I don't get it.

A Mazda and a Ford has the same rating, but one is assembled in the US, and one is not, the Ford has 65% domestic content, the Mazda has 0%. Shouldn't that count for something?
 
Originally Posted By: JakeR22
I don't get it.

A Mazda and a Ford has the same rating, but one is assembled in the US, and one is not, the Ford has 65% domestic content, the Mazda has 0%. Shouldn't that count for something?


You need to be more specific about which Ford and which Mazda.
 
Originally Posted By: USA1
Originally Posted By: JakeR22
I don't get it.

A Mazda and a Ford has the same rating, but one is assembled in the US, and one is not, the Ford has 65% domestic content, the Mazda has 0%. Shouldn't that count for something?


You need to be more specific about which Ford and which Mazda.


Mazda3 and Ford Focus.

Also, the Mazda3 gets a higher rating then a Chevy Cobalt.
 
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One other thing that makes me treat this with a bit of suspicion. Try to compare:

Mazda Tribute and the Ford Escape. Same vehicle, built in the same plant. They don't let you, they don't list the Mazda.

Try to find:

Chevy Aveo
Pontiac G3
Pontiac G8
or ANY Mitsubishi.

Ditto for Saab. Try comparing a SAAB 9-5 to the Chevy or GMC that it really is under the badging.

How about comparing the VW minivan to the Dodge or Chrysler it really is under the badging.

It's odd that all of these are missing.

Will Mazda's rating change now that it's no longer part of Ford. I see the Mazda 6 and the Fusion both have the same JPC rating, since Mazda is listed as part of Ford. (Yes, I realize this is old information.)

Does their JPC go down now, even if the car didn't change? If the car is still being built in Flat Rock using engines from Cleveland, etc?

Do the US Fords have a JPC rating drop if they are "importing" 4 cylinder engines from Mazda, instead of building them themselves when they had a controlling interest in Mazda?

It's just stuff like that that makes me look at the information provided with a skeptical eye. It's too easy to find GLARING omissions of data.

Even if we accept that it's not updated to reflect 2010, the question is how COMPLETELY and ACCURATELY does it reflect 2008 or 2009.

If cars like the Chevy Aveo, the Pontiac G3, the Mazda B series trucks, the Mazda Tribute, etc are all omitted, does it tell an accurate story?
 
Originally Posted By: JakeR22
Originally Posted By: USA1
Originally Posted By: JakeR22
I don't get it.

A Mazda and a Ford has the same rating, but one is assembled in the US, and one is not, the Ford has 65% domestic content, the Mazda has 0%. Shouldn't that count for something?


You need to be more specific about which Ford and which Mazda.


Mazda3 and Ford Focus.

Also, the Mazda3 gets a higher rating then a Chevy Cobalt.


I think this is because at the time the site was put together, Mazda was still considered part of Ford, hence the reason for some of my questions above.
 
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