The issue with Euro cars in North America and oils

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Thank you Doug!

So what are your thoughts regarding BMW's recommendation, and then switch away from 10w60 to 5w30 for the S62?
 
I'm not going to argue about the choice of oils for the S62. BMWNA has published an updated recommendation saying "TWS" and as far as I'm concerned (having owned two E39 M5's and done endless oil analysis on the engines) I'd use it an be done with it. Someone asked what goes in the E9x M3's S65 engine in the winter, and the answer is TWS. For arctic conditions, your dealer will switch to something else for you, according to the manual, but I've never heard of it actually being done.

TWS was not and is not a bandaid for anything. TWS is the oil that BMW Motorsport (the racing division, not the "M" street car division) uses for all of it's factory race engines. It was developed jointly with Castrol in the 90's as Formula RS Racing Syntec, and when Castrol reformulated it's RS product from a Grp 4/5 blend in 2000, BMW bought the rights to the old formulation and kept using it under the "TWS Motorsport" brand name. That's why it's an API SJ oil. TWS is a true racing oil. It has a film strength on par with 15w-50 Motul 300V, way higher than any of the other street oils that pretend to compete with it.

So how did we get the dual application for the S62? Well, nobody knows for sure. In 2000 when the M5 was introduced into North America, the earliest cars had the low-tension piston rings that enforced the use of TWS. In March 2000, there was a running change to the engine design that replaced the low tension rings with a more conventional design. That allowed the engine to work with BMW's 5w-30 and other LL-98 oils. The change was global. The TSB at the time didn't stipulate that TWS shouldn't be used, it just went from required to optional.

The other engineering issue that occurred almost simultaneously was the introduction of the S54 engined E46 M3. It was first introduced in North America with 5w-30 in the crankcase. Then engines started blowing up, and the first reaction from BMW was to switch to TWS. Of course, the failures were not lubrication related - one set was caused by left-over casting sand in the engine oilways, and the second set was caused by mismanufactured rod bearings. A recall cleaned all this up, but once TWS was in the supply chain, it stayed, and S54's have used it ever since. My interpretation is that BMWNA attempted to reduce supply chain costs by having the M engines reengineered to run on 5w-30, and while it probably would have worked, other problems that happened at the same time scuttled the experiment. Now, TWS is available at every BMW dealership and BMW recommends it exclusively for all M S54/S62/S65/S85 engines. There isn't a lot of room to argue.
 
Originally Posted By: jaj
I'm not going to argue about the choice of oils for the S62. BMWNA has published an updated recommendation saying "TWS" and as far as I'm concerned (having owned two E39 M5's and done endless oil analysis on the engines) I'd use it an be done with it. Someone asked what goes in the E9x M3's S65 engine in the winter, and the answer is TWS. For arctic conditions, your dealer will switch to something else for you, according to the manual, but I've never heard of it actually being done.

TWS was not and is not a bandaid for anything. TWS is the oil that BMW Motorsport (the racing division, not the "M" street car division) uses for all of it's factory race engines. It was developed jointly with Castrol in the 90's as Formula RS Racing Syntec, and when Castrol reformulated it's RS product from a Grp 4/5 blend in 2000, BMW bought the rights to the old formulation and kept using it under the "TWS Motorsport" brand name. That's why it's an API SJ oil. TWS is a true racing oil. It has a film strength on par with 15w-50 Motul 300V, way higher than any of the other street oils that pretend to compete with it.

So how did we get the dual application for the S62? Well, nobody knows for sure. In 2000 when the M5 was introduced into North America, the earliest cars had the low-tension piston rings that enforced the use of TWS. In March 2000, there was a running change to the engine design that replaced the low tension rings with a more conventional design. That allowed the engine to work with BMW's 5w-30 and other LL-98 oils. The change was global. The TSB at the time didn't stipulate that TWS shouldn't be used, it just went from required to optional.

The other engineering issue that occurred almost simultaneously was the introduction of the S54 engined E46 M3. It was first introduced in North America with 5w-30 in the crankcase. Then engines started blowing up, and the first reaction from BMW was to switch to TWS. Of course, the failures were not lubrication related - one set was caused by left-over casting sand in the engine oilways, and the second set was caused by mismanufactured rod bearings. A recall cleaned all this up, but once TWS was in the supply chain, it stayed, and S54's have used it ever since. My interpretation is that BMWNA attempted to reduce supply chain costs by having the M engines reengineered to run on 5w-30, and while it probably would have worked, other problems that happened at the same time scuttled the experiment. Now, TWS is available at every BMW dealership and BMW recommends it exclusively for all M S54/S62/S65/S85 engines. There isn't a lot of room to argue.



The sheets I was given by BMW clearly show otherwise (they are quite recent) as they tell me to run their 5w30 and NOT the TWS 10w60.

It appears even in BMW there is a lot of confusion here.

BTW, I'm not trying to be argumentative. It just appears there is no way to get a perfectly straight answer on this topic, regardless of who you speak to.
 
I think it's safe to say that BMW designed the S62 engine with TWS as the baseline oil during development, and then they changed the rings and requalified it to meet its reliability and longevity goals with LL-98 oils and BMW branded 5w-30.

My experience with the engine was that oil temps ran noticeably cooler with the lighter oils, that it consumed M1 0w-40 voraciously, and that the best and most consistent UOA's came with TWS.
 
Originally Posted By: jaj
I think it's safe to say that BMW designed the S62 engine with TWS as the baseline oil during development, and then they changed the rings and requalified it to meet its reliability and longevity goals with LL-98 oils and BMW branded 5w-30.

My experience with the engine was that oil temps ran noticeably cooler with the lighter oils, that it consumed M1 0w-40 voraciously, and that the best and most consistent UOA's came with TWS.


Interesting! I'm always interested in hearing your experience.

Now, I've put about 10,000Km on mine. It has used 1/2L of M1 0w40. It doesn't seem to consume on either the BMW 5w30, or the M1 0w40? So this does not correspond with your experience correct?

I don't have a baseline regarding temps with the TWS, AFAIK, it hasn't been used in this car. I could be wrong however. Being an '01, 5w30 is what is specified in the owners manual....

I have not however been able to get the temps even up to 100C. No matter how hard I beat on it.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: jaj
I think it's safe to say that BMW designed the S62 engine with TWS as the baseline oil during development, and then they changed the rings and requalified it to meet its reliability and longevity goals with LL-98 oils and BMW branded 5w-30.

My experience with the engine was that oil temps ran noticeably cooler with the lighter oils, that it consumed M1 0w-40 voraciously, and that the best and most consistent UOA's came with TWS.


Interesting! I'm always interested in hearing your experience.

Now, I've put about 10,000Km on mine. It has used 1/2L of M1 0w40. It doesn't seem to consume on either the BMW 5w30, or the M1 0w40? So this does not correspond with your experience correct?

I don't have a baseline regarding temps with the TWS, AFAIK, it hasn't been used in this car. I could be wrong however. Being an '01, 5w30 is what is specified in the owners manual....

I have not however been able to get the temps even up to 100C. No matter how hard I beat on it.



....not that I have any info to add, however I do not think engine oil temperature should be used to choose engine oil viscosities. The question is really what oil viscosity was the engine designed for. HO Audis engines, for example, commonly run at temperatures>100C and yet,at least outside the US, specify 5w-30 (even for the Bugatti Veryon).
 
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
I do not think engine oil temperature should be used to choose engine oil viscosities. The question is really what oil viscosity was the engine designed for.

Engine oil temp is PART OF what the engine was designed for.

Engine oil recommendations are optimized for the range of temperatures that the factory expects the car to see. When oil temps are consistently above or below that range, the oil should be selected accordingly and might have to be of a different viscosity grade from spec.


Originally Posted By: felixthecat
HO Audis engines, for example, commonly run at temperatures>100C and yet,at least outside the US, specify 5w-30 (even for the Bugatti Veryon).

Source for the Veyron's oil spec?
 
I had an 01 and an 03 and they both used a liter of TWS in 3000km, and a liter of anything else in about 2000km. Your consumption is excellent from from the sounds of it.

It was a while since I had mine, but the temp thing was about five degrees warmer in city driving with TWS - lets say 95 celsius instead of 90. At the track it would run about 115 with TWS and around 105 with 5w-30. The weird thing about the track was that oil consumption went to zero - I could drive all day flat out and use no oil, but puttering around town ran it down as I indicated above.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
I do not think engine oil temperature should be used to choose engine oil viscosities. The question is really what oil viscosity was the engine designed for.

Engine oil temp is PART OF what the engine was designed for.

Engine oil recommendations are optimized for the range of temperatures that the factory expects the car to see. When oil temps are consistently above or below that range, the oil should be selected accordingly and might have to be of a different viscosity grade from spec.


Originally Posted By: felixthecat
HO Audis engines, for example, commonly run at temperatures>100C and yet,at least outside the US, specify 5w-30 (even for the Bugatti Veryon).

Source for the Veyron's oil spec?


As far as the Bugatti....my source was recollection. However, upon searching the Castrol Germany site it appears to be Castrol Formula RS 10w-60.
Nonetheless Audi HO engines run temp >100C easily (traffic on a hot day, freeway driving ) and in fact the new RS5 engine is supposedly running even hotter oil temperatures ( apparently in an attempt to decrease DI deposits) on Castol Edge 5w-30.
The point is absolute oil temperature is not always the best way to choose oil viscosity. These engines were designed to run 5w-30 at such high temperatures.
 
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Audi HO engines run temp >100C easily (traffic on a hot day, freeway driving ) and in fact the new RS5 engine is supposedly running even hotter oil temperatures ( apparently in an attempt to decrease DI deposits) on Castol Edge 5w-30.
The point is absolute oil temperature is not always the best way to choose oil viscosity. These engines were designed to run 5w-30 at such high temperatures.


No one is saying that all cars should run xw-30 in temperature range A, xw-40 in temperature range B, etc. I fail to see where the disagreement lies.
 
I was at a track event where another SRT8 owner was running 0w-20 in his car. His oil temp was consistently comparable or lower than mine. The car is spec'd for M1 0w-40.

I was running 15w-50 M1 thinking it was better, but now I know.

Thanks Bitog!
 
BMW issues can be confounding for sure. S54 engines in M3s got TWS oil and bearing recalls... The same engine in M Coupes and M Roadsters did NOT get the recall. They were only fixed if they broke! The engine is the same.... but with different headers and a 200rpm lower redline.
 
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