The issue with Euro cars in North America and oils
- Thread starter OVERKILL
- Start date
- Status
Wal-Mart Tire & Lube Express
Originally Posted By: BobFout
My friend/co-worker with a 2004 1.8T GTI was using M1 5w30. I explained there's more to oil than its grade (as 5w30 was mentioned in the owner's manual), there's specs also! This wasn't the SBC, BBC or Honda that he was used to in terms of oil specs.
Went to Mobil's site and showed him "The company that manufactures your vehicle recommends this Mobil 1 product, or has a special requirement" and the only oil from Mobil happens to be M1 0w40.
I gave him my leftover quart of M1 0w40 and he bought some more full quarts for an oil change.
Weird, my friend has 04 GTI, (may be different engine, his 20v), I looked thru manual and pointed out that it requres 5w-40 oil, and 5w-30 can be used for top offs or when 5-40 not available. He used 5w-30 synthetics most time. He became lazy to change his own oil, I don't think that shops he uses even have 5w-40, except Grossman Tuning, which specializes in German cars. Last time we were at Napa, I bought him a liter of LM 5w-40 oil in purple bottle for top off,and added some MoS2. His filler hole looks very clean doug. I think his ocis never been more than 8k.
My friend/co-worker with a 2004 1.8T GTI was using M1 5w30. I explained there's more to oil than its grade (as 5w30 was mentioned in the owner's manual), there's specs also! This wasn't the SBC, BBC or Honda that he was used to in terms of oil specs.
Went to Mobil's site and showed him "The company that manufactures your vehicle recommends this Mobil 1 product, or has a special requirement" and the only oil from Mobil happens to be M1 0w40.
I gave him my leftover quart of M1 0w40 and he bought some more full quarts for an oil change.
Weird, my friend has 04 GTI, (may be different engine, his 20v), I looked thru manual and pointed out that it requres 5w-40 oil, and 5w-30 can be used for top offs or when 5-40 not available. He used 5w-30 synthetics most time. He became lazy to change his own oil, I don't think that shops he uses even have 5w-40, except Grossman Tuning, which specializes in German cars. Last time we were at Napa, I bought him a liter of LM 5w-40 oil in purple bottle for top off,and added some MoS2. His filler hole looks very clean doug. I think his ocis never been more than 8k.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: zyxelenator
Originally Posted By: BobFout
My friend/co-worker with a 2004 1.8T GTI was using M1 5w30. I explained there's more to oil than its grade (as 5w30 was mentioned in the owner's manual), there's specs also! This wasn't the SBC, BBC or Honda that he was used to in terms of oil specs.
Went to Mobil's site and showed him "The company that manufactures your vehicle recommends this Mobil 1 product, or has a special requirement" and the only oil from Mobil happens to be M1 0w40.
I gave him my leftover quart of M1 0w40 and he bought some more full quarts for an oil change.
Weird, my friend has 04 GTI, (may be different engine, his 20v), I looked thru manual and pointed out that it requres 5w-40 oil, and 5w-30 can be used for top offs or when 5-40 not available. He used 5w-30 synthetics most time. He became lazy to change his own oil, I don't think that shops he uses even have 5w-40, except Grossman Tuning, which specializes in German cars. Last time we were at Napa, I bought him a liter of LM 5w-40 oil in purple bottle for top off,and added some MoS2. His filler hole looks very clean doug. I think his ocis never been more than 8k.
Why is he running the wrong oil in his car?
Originally Posted By: BobFout
My friend/co-worker with a 2004 1.8T GTI was using M1 5w30. I explained there's more to oil than its grade (as 5w30 was mentioned in the owner's manual), there's specs also! This wasn't the SBC, BBC or Honda that he was used to in terms of oil specs.
Went to Mobil's site and showed him "The company that manufactures your vehicle recommends this Mobil 1 product, or has a special requirement" and the only oil from Mobil happens to be M1 0w40.
I gave him my leftover quart of M1 0w40 and he bought some more full quarts for an oil change.
Weird, my friend has 04 GTI, (may be different engine, his 20v), I looked thru manual and pointed out that it requres 5w-40 oil, and 5w-30 can be used for top offs or when 5-40 not available. He used 5w-30 synthetics most time. He became lazy to change his own oil, I don't think that shops he uses even have 5w-40, except Grossman Tuning, which specializes in German cars. Last time we were at Napa, I bought him a liter of LM 5w-40 oil in purple bottle for top off,and added some MoS2. His filler hole looks very clean doug. I think his ocis never been more than 8k.
Why is he running the wrong oil in his car?
Listening to over the counter guys,and too lazy to look at manual,I guess. He said: "ok,will buy 5w-40", he is going to change out Valvoline Syn power fill soon. Next fill will be ether Lubro Moly, Castrol,M1 or Shell T6 in descending order.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: swedespeed
I have two Volvos, one an '01 S60 T5 with the mid-pressure turbo B5234T3 engine and ~127,000 mi and the other an '05 S60 R with the higher-pressure turbo B5254T4 engine (also running a 19 psi tune on it) and ~99,000 mi. Both call for an A5/B5 oil in the owner's manual, which for a long time all I used was M1 0W-40. Now that the 0W-40 has disappeared from Wal-Mart shelves and I can't bring myself to pay $8.99/qt at other stores, I've begun using Rotella T6 5W-40. It's an E9 spec oil, which looks to have comparable performance requirements to A5 oils, plus better anti-coking properties, which is important for both my turbos, since I compete with the '01 in NASA HPDE and AutoX events and drive the R ...hard. I've been using the T6 for about 10,000 mi and UOAs on both cars are fantastic.... might be something to consider for other folks driving both turbo and non-turbo Euro cars.
Nice couple of cars...went the M1 0W40 route on the T5 and the PU 5W40 route on the XC...both are great, with UOAs to support that position.
Managed to get several cases of M1 TDT 5W40 for about $1/Qt (don't hate me...) and plan to run that in the future.
But I have always been more picky than Volvo requires in its manuals...the interesting thing is that the manual recommends a synthetic A1/B1 in high heat or towing, and the TNN (service bulletin) for a sludged up "white" engine requires ACEA A3/B3, viscosity SAE 5W-30 Synthetic oil...changed often until the engine is cleaned up...hmmm...wonder why that wasn't spec'd to begin with?
I have two Volvos, one an '01 S60 T5 with the mid-pressure turbo B5234T3 engine and ~127,000 mi and the other an '05 S60 R with the higher-pressure turbo B5254T4 engine (also running a 19 psi tune on it) and ~99,000 mi. Both call for an A5/B5 oil in the owner's manual, which for a long time all I used was M1 0W-40. Now that the 0W-40 has disappeared from Wal-Mart shelves and I can't bring myself to pay $8.99/qt at other stores, I've begun using Rotella T6 5W-40. It's an E9 spec oil, which looks to have comparable performance requirements to A5 oils, plus better anti-coking properties, which is important for both my turbos, since I compete with the '01 in NASA HPDE and AutoX events and drive the R ...hard. I've been using the T6 for about 10,000 mi and UOAs on both cars are fantastic.... might be something to consider for other folks driving both turbo and non-turbo Euro cars.
Nice couple of cars...went the M1 0W40 route on the T5 and the PU 5W40 route on the XC...both are great, with UOAs to support that position.
Managed to get several cases of M1 TDT 5W40 for about $1/Qt (don't hate me...) and plan to run that in the future.
But I have always been more picky than Volvo requires in its manuals...the interesting thing is that the manual recommends a synthetic A1/B1 in high heat or towing, and the TNN (service bulletin) for a sludged up "white" engine requires ACEA A3/B3, viscosity SAE 5W-30 Synthetic oil...changed often until the engine is cleaned up...hmmm...wonder why that wasn't spec'd to begin with?
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
People do commonly use non-spec oils in German cars. How much damage that actually does, if any, really depends on the particular engine, oil, and driving conditions.
For example, I ran M1 0W-40 and M1 5W-30 back to back one summer in a modified VW 1.8T and had both analyzed at 5K miles. Car saw probably 70-80 percent highway miles. Both oils did fine, very low wear metals across the board, no real differences. Certainly nothing to suggest that the non-spec, lower HTHS 5W-30 was causing any problems or excessive wear.
On the other hand, people who have used conventional or blend oils in the longitudinal 1.8T and followed what was at one time the recommended OCI of 10K miles, have had issues with engine sludge.
So I guess in the end, the safest route is to use a spec oil, but you can get away with doing otherwise if you have or gather enough information and perhaps do some testing.
The problem is that a UOA, esp a single pass, doesn't tell you whether or not the oil is "ok" for your engine. Even 5k miles UOA's.
My attitude is that the OEM's spec is designed for most of the markets in which they'll sell their cars and it meets the intended OCI based upon typical usage.
It actually tells you quite a bit, or at least it did in my case. The main concern with running a synthetic oil (that is otherwise a good product) that's below the specified viscosity and HTHS in an engine like the 1.8T is that it won't maintain a sufficient lubrication barrier when heated up and put under stress by areas like the turbo bearings and rod bearings.
So if a modified one shows wear metals that are indistinguishable from the same low numbers seen with "spec" 0W-40, while using the "non-spec" 5W-30, that tells me that there is no excessive wear in any of those areas as a result of using the 5W-30.
Change the test conditions and obviously that could change, but this car saw about as hard a life as one could create for such an engine without ending up in jail in North America.
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
People do commonly use non-spec oils in German cars. How much damage that actually does, if any, really depends on the particular engine, oil, and driving conditions.
For example, I ran M1 0W-40 and M1 5W-30 back to back one summer in a modified VW 1.8T and had both analyzed at 5K miles. Car saw probably 70-80 percent highway miles. Both oils did fine, very low wear metals across the board, no real differences. Certainly nothing to suggest that the non-spec, lower HTHS 5W-30 was causing any problems or excessive wear.
On the other hand, people who have used conventional or blend oils in the longitudinal 1.8T and followed what was at one time the recommended OCI of 10K miles, have had issues with engine sludge.
So I guess in the end, the safest route is to use a spec oil, but you can get away with doing otherwise if you have or gather enough information and perhaps do some testing.
The problem is that a UOA, esp a single pass, doesn't tell you whether or not the oil is "ok" for your engine. Even 5k miles UOA's.
My attitude is that the OEM's spec is designed for most of the markets in which they'll sell their cars and it meets the intended OCI based upon typical usage.
It actually tells you quite a bit, or at least it did in my case. The main concern with running a synthetic oil (that is otherwise a good product) that's below the specified viscosity and HTHS in an engine like the 1.8T is that it won't maintain a sufficient lubrication barrier when heated up and put under stress by areas like the turbo bearings and rod bearings.
So if a modified one shows wear metals that are indistinguishable from the same low numbers seen with "spec" 0W-40, while using the "non-spec" 5W-30, that tells me that there is no excessive wear in any of those areas as a result of using the 5W-30.
Change the test conditions and obviously that could change, but this car saw about as hard a life as one could create for such an engine without ending up in jail in North America.
Originally Posted By: dparm
I stopped trying to argue/educate a lot of folks on oil. They either get confused and say they don't care, or ....
Ditto.. or they'll say "Oil is oil. All oils are good and makes no difference".
I just keep my mouth shut unless specifically asked and even then more times than not is any of the above afterwards.
I stopped trying to argue/educate a lot of folks on oil. They either get confused and say they don't care, or ....
Ditto.. or they'll say "Oil is oil. All oils are good and makes no difference".
I just keep my mouth shut unless specifically asked and even then more times than not is any of the above afterwards.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Oil recommendation changes were a marketing issue.
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/142633-what-bmw-has-say-subject-oil.html
I've read that thread, and am a member there. However, the recommendation for the LL-01 oils is for everywhere OUTSIDE the US. If you use the Mobil 1 oil selectors, only the ones OUTSIDE the United States recommend their 0w40 for the S62/M5 and specifically state that the engine had to be manufactured after 03/00.
Again, if the TWS 10w60 was indeed the "holy grail" for the S62, it would prevent the rod bearing failure that some have experienced. This is not the case. In fact I have yet to see any proof that the TWS makes an S62 last any longer at all.
But that is not the point of this thread. This thread isn't about my M5 or my oil choice. There is another one of those threads that I created that, if you want to continue this debate, we can do in that thread so we don't continue to derail this one.
The oil for your vehicle is Castrol 10W 60 TWS:
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Oil recommendation changes were a marketing issue.
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/142633-what-bmw-has-say-subject-oil.html
I've read that thread, and am a member there. However, the recommendation for the LL-01 oils is for everywhere OUTSIDE the US. If you use the Mobil 1 oil selectors, only the ones OUTSIDE the United States recommend their 0w40 for the S62/M5 and specifically state that the engine had to be manufactured after 03/00.
Again, if the TWS 10w60 was indeed the "holy grail" for the S62, it would prevent the rod bearing failure that some have experienced. This is not the case. In fact I have yet to see any proof that the TWS makes an S62 last any longer at all.
But that is not the point of this thread. This thread isn't about my M5 or my oil choice. There is another one of those threads that I created that, if you want to continue this debate, we can do in that thread so we don't continue to derail this one.
The oil for your vehicle is Castrol 10W 60 TWS:
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Oil recommendation changes were a marketing issue.
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/142633-what-bmw-has-say-subject-oil.html
I've read that thread, and am a member there. However, the recommendation for the LL-01 oils is for everywhere OUTSIDE the US. If you use the Mobil 1 oil selectors, only the ones OUTSIDE the United States recommend their 0w40 for the S62/M5 and specifically state that the engine had to be manufactured after 03/00.
Again, if the TWS 10w60 was indeed the "holy grail" for the S62, it would prevent the rod bearing failure that some have experienced. This is not the case. In fact I have yet to see any proof that the TWS makes an S62 last any longer at all.
But that is not the point of this thread. This thread isn't about my M5 or my oil choice. There is another one of those threads that I created that, if you want to continue this debate, we can do in that thread so we don't continue to derail this one.
The oil for your vehicle is Castrol 10W 60 TWS:
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx
No, it isn't. For the love of God man! I have the service bulletin from BMW. TWS 10w60 is only required for cars manufactured before 03/00.
A piston ring design change removes that requirement for the S62. My owners manual says BMW LL-01 5w30 in it.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Oil recommendation changes were a marketing issue.
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/142633-what-bmw-has-say-subject-oil.html
I've read that thread, and am a member there. However, the recommendation for the LL-01 oils is for everywhere OUTSIDE the US. If you use the Mobil 1 oil selectors, only the ones OUTSIDE the United States recommend their 0w40 for the S62/M5 and specifically state that the engine had to be manufactured after 03/00.
Again, if the TWS 10w60 was indeed the "holy grail" for the S62, it would prevent the rod bearing failure that some have experienced. This is not the case. In fact I have yet to see any proof that the TWS makes an S62 last any longer at all.
But that is not the point of this thread. This thread isn't about my M5 or my oil choice. There is another one of those threads that I created that, if you want to continue this debate, we can do in that thread so we don't continue to derail this one.
The oil for your vehicle is Castrol 10W 60 TWS:
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx
No, it isn't. For the love of God man! I have the service bulletin from BMW. TWS 10w60 is only required for cars manufactured before 03/00.
A piston ring design change removes that requirement for the S62. My owners manual says BMW LL-01 5w30 in it.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
No, it isn't. For the love of God man! I have the service bulletin from BMW. TWS 10w60 is only required for cars manufactured before 03/00.
A piston ring design change removes that requirement for the S62. My owners manual says BMW LL-01 5w30 in it.
Yea seriously. I can't even imagine the startup wear of 10W-60 in Canadian winter vs. 0W-40.
No, it isn't. For the love of God man! I have the service bulletin from BMW. TWS 10w60 is only required for cars manufactured before 03/00.
A piston ring design change removes that requirement for the S62. My owners manual says BMW LL-01 5w30 in it.
Yea seriously. I can't even imagine the startup wear of 10W-60 in Canadian winter vs. 0W-40.
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Yea seriously. I can't even imagine the startup wear of 10W-60 in Canadian winter vs. 0W-40.
I'd be willing to bet it's less than you might think. Castrol TWS isn't your average engine oil. For starters, it has a pour point of around -50º C, if I recall correctly...
Yea seriously. I can't even imagine the startup wear of 10W-60 in Canadian winter vs. 0W-40.
I'd be willing to bet it's less than you might think. Castrol TWS isn't your average engine oil. For starters, it has a pour point of around -50º C, if I recall correctly...
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Yea seriously. I can't even imagine the startup wear of 10W-60 in Canadian winter vs. 0W-40.
I'd be willing to bet it's less than you might think. Castrol TWS isn't your average engine oil. For starters, it has a pour point of around -50º C, if I recall correctly...
-51C according to their incredibly vague PDS........
http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/4247_TWS_Motorsport_10W60_mseries_119397_2006_09.pdf
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Yea seriously. I can't even imagine the startup wear of 10W-60 in Canadian winter vs. 0W-40.
I'd be willing to bet it's less than you might think. Castrol TWS isn't your average engine oil. For starters, it has a pour point of around -50º C, if I recall correctly...
-51C according to their incredibly vague PDS........
http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/4247_TWS_Motorsport_10W60_mseries_119397_2006_09.pdf
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Using the Widman calc (which AFAIK, isn't really accurate below 0C), we get the following values comparing TWS 10w60 to M1 0w40:
-20C:
TWS: 6947.5
M 1: 2676.8
-10C:
TWS: 2973.6
M 1: 1202.8
0C:
TWS: 1418.6
M 1: 439.7
10C:
TWS: 741.5
M 1: 328.2
20C:
TWS: 418.7
M 1: 193.1
It would appear TWS is as heavy on a warm day 20C start, as M1 0w40 is at 0 degrees!
-20C:
TWS: 6947.5
M 1: 2676.8
-10C:
TWS: 2973.6
M 1: 1202.8
0C:
TWS: 1418.6
M 1: 439.7
10C:
TWS: 741.5
M 1: 328.2
20C:
TWS: 418.7
M 1: 193.1
It would appear TWS is as heavy on a warm day 20C start, as M1 0w40 is at 0 degrees!
[quote
A piston ring design change removes that requirement for the S62. My owners manual says BMW LL-01 5w30 in it. [/quote]
I never quite understood how a ring design change can allow such a drastic viscosity requirement change.
A piston ring design change removes that requirement for the S62. My owners manual says BMW LL-01 5w30 in it. [/quote]
I never quite understood how a ring design change can allow such a drastic viscosity requirement change.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Quote:
A piston ring design change removes that requirement for the S62. My owners manual says BMW LL-01 5w30 in it.
I never quite understood how a ring design change can allow such a drastic viscosity requirement change.
I don't know quite frankly. The S62 was never designed for 10W60. The oil was created for the M3, not the M5. The S62 was designed around the BMW 5w30 IIRC, which is what its sibling, the M62 spec's. When the 10w60 came into existence, it became "the standard" for the ///M cars, M5 and Z8 included, so the S62 was then "spec'd" for it.
However, that decision was later reversed and the S62 was spec'd for 5w30.
Regarding the piston ring design, I have my own little theory. The S62, particularly the early ones, apparently can be very thirsty for oil. It doesn't mean they aren't healthy.... but they consume. One of the cars I test drove ran like a top but used 1L/1000Km, which I thought was excessive, but apparently isn't. I'm betting the ring change was done to deal with THIS issue. The 10w60 probably works to control oil use on the earlier engines, and that "feature" isn't necessary on the later ones.
My '01 has used 1L in 8,000Km, which is perfectly acceptable. It sees high revs daily, and the limiter periodically. It's a 7,000RPM 32V V8.... And when driven like it's supposed to, some oil use is going to be normal.
Quote:
A piston ring design change removes that requirement for the S62. My owners manual says BMW LL-01 5w30 in it.
I never quite understood how a ring design change can allow such a drastic viscosity requirement change.
I don't know quite frankly. The S62 was never designed for 10W60. The oil was created for the M3, not the M5. The S62 was designed around the BMW 5w30 IIRC, which is what its sibling, the M62 spec's. When the 10w60 came into existence, it became "the standard" for the ///M cars, M5 and Z8 included, so the S62 was then "spec'd" for it.
However, that decision was later reversed and the S62 was spec'd for 5w30.
Regarding the piston ring design, I have my own little theory. The S62, particularly the early ones, apparently can be very thirsty for oil. It doesn't mean they aren't healthy.... but they consume. One of the cars I test drove ran like a top but used 1L/1000Km, which I thought was excessive, but apparently isn't. I'm betting the ring change was done to deal with THIS issue. The 10w60 probably works to control oil use on the earlier engines, and that "feature" isn't necessary on the later ones.
My '01 has used 1L in 8,000Km, which is perfectly acceptable. It sees high revs daily, and the limiter periodically. It's a 7,000RPM 32V V8.... And when driven like it's supposed to, some oil use is going to be normal.
.......however I have heard over the years from several people with close associations with BMW that they would only use TWS......and certainly the internet is full of posts such as this:
http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?p=27623
http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?p=27623
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
.......however I have heard over the years from several people with close associations with BMW that they would only use TWS......and certainly the internet is full of posts such as this:
http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?p=27623
Of course. However, since those were two separate engines with no mention of maintenance history, OCI length, driving style, mileage....etc, it doesn't mean much.
Lots of those types of posts on M5forum as well.
Interesting anecdote: The highest mileage S62 is an M5board member..... And he doesn't use TWS 10w60.
Another anecdote: The rod bearing "failure" or "issue".... The vast majority of cases are engines that were run on TWS. Now of course that makes sense, since I'm sure a very large percentage of owners use TWS anyway, but it is interesting to note that the TWS doesn't appear to have any effect on this. It certainly doesn't prevent it.
BTW, our own Doug Hillary advised that I use the oil I am using currently. It is an approved oil for the app (LL-01).
.......however I have heard over the years from several people with close associations with BMW that they would only use TWS......and certainly the internet is full of posts such as this:
http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?p=27623
Of course. However, since those were two separate engines with no mention of maintenance history, OCI length, driving style, mileage....etc, it doesn't mean much.
Lots of those types of posts on M5forum as well.
Interesting anecdote: The highest mileage S62 is an M5board member..... And he doesn't use TWS 10w60.
Another anecdote: The rod bearing "failure" or "issue".... The vast majority of cases are engines that were run on TWS. Now of course that makes sense, since I'm sure a very large percentage of owners use TWS anyway, but it is interesting to note that the TWS doesn't appear to have any effect on this. It certainly doesn't prevent it.
BTW, our own Doug Hillary advised that I use the oil I am using currently. It is an approved oil for the app (LL-01).
If the person who designed your engine recommended TWS, would you use it?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
If the person who designed your engine recommended TWS, would you use it?
If the actual team of engineers that designed the S62 said to use TWS, yes. However, from what I recall, TWS came into existence for the M3 engines (which had a rod bearing problem), NOT the S62. It was then just later spec'd for the S62.
If the person who designed your engine recommended TWS, would you use it?
If the actual team of engineers that designed the S62 said to use TWS, yes. However, from what I recall, TWS came into existence for the M3 engines (which had a rod bearing problem), NOT the S62. It was then just later spec'd for the S62.
- Status