The Holy Grail of Automotive Design
- Thread starter TooSlick
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The feeling of being "one" with the car, not two seperate things. Like knowing how fast you are going without looking at the speedo or knowing when to shift by the ""feel"" of the rpms.
Dependable day in and day out!
Buster,
You don't get to know the answer
- and the fact that almost no one "gets it" is the reason the Japanese are eating our lunch in the small to medium car market. It is also the reason they will eventually take over the SUV and large truck markets.
I'm still waiting to hear from some of the automotive engineers in Motor City - I know they understand what the problems are ....
TS
You don't get to know the answer
I'm still waiting to hear from some of the automotive engineers in Motor City - I know they understand what the problems are ....
TS
TooSlick - maybe you are thinking of the concept of actually knowing ALL the properties (material, dimensional, visual, etc) and EXACTLY the mean life of these parts down to the screw in the back of the dashboard.
The Japanese are GREAT at this, the Germans so-so, the American are learning, but the accountants (CEO's, etc) won't let them apply it!
The Japanese are GREAT at this, the Germans so-so, the American are learning, but the accountants (CEO's, etc) won't let them apply it!
well, since my one word response didn't seem to get it, i'll try the verbose method.
pertaining to small cars:
the detroit 3 look at small cars as a necessary evil. they are low margin, low cost. they have are just getting the idea that small cars can be fun and practical. i think the ford focus and the new dodge neon are examples of this. i don't know squat about the new chevy cobalt, so i'll reserve judgement.
on the other hand, if you look at some of the small cars from other companies, you can see the love. honda civic, mitsubishi lancer, mazda3 (or protege), mini cooper, vw golf / jetta, and subaru impreza. while the mini and the vw's aren't the best build quality, they are fun little drivers that make the daily commute less tedious.
in general, while the camrys and accords may seem boring, they sell or lease well because they are quiet, reliable, get good gas mileage, and don't handle like overweight pigs. the accord, altima, and mazda6 are all cars i'd drop the dime for.
when i think of the american cars in this class, it goes something like this:
impala - ugly
grand prix - plastic
century - boring (but nice, very camry-like)
taurus - extruded
sebring - unreliable (but great looking)
this is not what the "brand managers" wanted.
there seems to be little passion in the detroit 3 anymore. don't get me wrong; my wife's camry is as exciting as a plate of white rice, but toyota makes several other vehicles that are a nut to drive. ford, gm, and dc all have a car here or there that gets me going, but not much that i'd want as a daily driver. someday i'll have a 'vette, but that will be a summer car to complement my subaru.
pertaining to small cars:
the detroit 3 look at small cars as a necessary evil. they are low margin, low cost. they have are just getting the idea that small cars can be fun and practical. i think the ford focus and the new dodge neon are examples of this. i don't know squat about the new chevy cobalt, so i'll reserve judgement.
on the other hand, if you look at some of the small cars from other companies, you can see the love. honda civic, mitsubishi lancer, mazda3 (or protege), mini cooper, vw golf / jetta, and subaru impreza. while the mini and the vw's aren't the best build quality, they are fun little drivers that make the daily commute less tedious.
in general, while the camrys and accords may seem boring, they sell or lease well because they are quiet, reliable, get good gas mileage, and don't handle like overweight pigs. the accord, altima, and mazda6 are all cars i'd drop the dime for.
when i think of the american cars in this class, it goes something like this:
impala - ugly
grand prix - plastic
century - boring (but nice, very camry-like)
taurus - extruded
sebring - unreliable (but great looking)
this is not what the "brand managers" wanted.
there seems to be little passion in the detroit 3 anymore. don't get me wrong; my wife's camry is as exciting as a plate of white rice, but toyota makes several other vehicles that are a nut to drive. ford, gm, and dc all have a car here or there that gets me going, but not much that i'd want as a daily driver. someday i'll have a 'vette, but that will be a summer car to complement my subaru.
I won't shoot for a one word answer but I think it is well established that the Japanese companies actually build what the engineers design. American car companies too often look at the engineering/design work and decide to just grab parts out of the bin. Ford will probably still be using POS Fairmont parts after we are all dead.
Ah screw it, here is my one word answer.
REFINEMENT
Ah screw it, here is my one word answer.
REFINEMENT
Has no one mentioned the overall "feel" of a vehicle? My Fords "feel" like a pile of bolts and pieces parts, not too well connected. My Toyotas have "felt" like jewelry or a watch in comparison. Even Japanese shocks that aren't too well damped never feel loose and sloppy. They just feel light.
It's some combination of the quality of the parts, how they fit together, how they work together, how long they last, how they look, etc...
It's some combination of the quality of the parts, how they fit together, how they work together, how long they last, how they look, etc...
Similar experiance here. I love my Corvette, but compared to my wife's Acura my Corvette feels like a bunch of parts flying in close formation and not quite solidly connected to each other.
The hardest quality to engineer into any car is:
"R-E-F-I-N-E-M-E-N-T"
Which is:
1) How smooth the engine sounds when you rev it, along with the tone of the exhaust
2) The ride/handling/interior space compromise
3) The tactile feel of the controls stalks and "switchgear"
4) How smoothly the car shifts and the clutch engages
5) How natural the power steering feels as you turn it off center
6) How easy the brakes are to modulate
7) How easily the doors open and close and what they sound like when you close them
8) Fit and Finish
9) Long term reliability
10) Front seat design and support
11) How natural the car feels the first time you drive it - especially if you drive it hard and fast.
12) etc, etc....
Refinement is not just one or two things - it's Everything....
It's the hardest thing to design in because it's the hardest thing for engineers/designers to quantify. How do you write a specific design requirement that says the power steering should feel natural and provide good "road feel"???
"R-E-F-I-N-E-M-E-N-T"
Which is:
1) How smooth the engine sounds when you rev it, along with the tone of the exhaust
2) The ride/handling/interior space compromise
3) The tactile feel of the controls stalks and "switchgear"
4) How smoothly the car shifts and the clutch engages
5) How natural the power steering feels as you turn it off center
6) How easy the brakes are to modulate
7) How easily the doors open and close and what they sound like when you close them
8) Fit and Finish
9) Long term reliability
10) Front seat design and support
11) How natural the car feels the first time you drive it - especially if you drive it hard and fast.
12) etc, etc....
Refinement is not just one or two things - it's Everything....
It's the hardest thing to design in because it's the hardest thing for engineers/designers to quantify. How do you write a specific design requirement that says the power steering should feel natural and provide good "road feel"???
In all honesty TooSlick that was answered by many callers. Bzzzzzzzzzzzt.......next question.
I can't stand most Japanese metal, so I'll just talk about the euros.
Character
Refinement
A view that driving should be done for the sake of driving itself. American cars just don't seem to get this.
I could care less about having a steering wheel that I can turn with a single pinkie finger. Same about a completely disconnected suspension. or cheapa$$ looking plastics everywhere. I just can't understand why the greatest nation in the world can't take a holistic approach to building an automobile.
Character
Refinement
A view that driving should be done for the sake of driving itself. American cars just don't seem to get this.
I could care less about having a steering wheel that I can turn with a single pinkie finger. Same about a completely disconnected suspension. or cheapa$$ looking plastics everywhere. I just can't understand why the greatest nation in the world can't take a holistic approach to building an automobile.
Let's see:
I own a 2003 Corolla
1-This engine does not sound extremely healthy; it sounds a bit anemic and underpowerded. There is this noise.....not a tick or slap.....more like a metalic buzz that isn't very loud, but it's there. It vibrates at idle.....it's a 4-banger. My 01 Accord (I4) didn't vibrate much, if at all.
2-IMHO, the ride on this car is very very bad. It is extremely rough on straight driving, yet very mushy and lose in turns. Someone explained that Toyota used very hard springs and soft shocks. My Z is way smoother and confier. The Corolla does feel somewhat good in high speed off ramp driving, but I think that's due to it's weight (25-2600lbs?). Interior space is a perfect 10 for this size car.....nothing else to add.
3-The cruise control is a lever like device that sits right below the signal/headlight lever. I'm bound to rip it off one day since I have tried to move it up and down thiking it's the turn signal. I also believe it's a bit complicate and out of view. The fan speed knob for the AC is in the WRONG location. My wife and I noticed that as soon as we drove the car for the first time. All else is positioned very good and gauges have excellent visibility.....UNLIKE my Z28!
4-The auto tranny is always searching for the right gear.....but this is due to the low torque engine. It upshifts firm and downshifts with authority.
5-The power steering feels good and provides good feedback....a little too lose on high speeds though.
6-It has no ABS, but for this price range, the brakes are excellent. My Z's rotors warped within a few thousand miles after I bought it.....they were resurfaced and are warped again
7&8-One of the strongest points in Japanese and European made vehicles. Fit, finish and operation of doors, latches, hood and so on are very good. The spacing between panels is small and consistent. My Z looks like it was put together by a 4 year old
9-Toyota's reputation is well known. My car only has 22K miles, so it's still a baby. Stay tuned.
10-The front seat are not that good at all.....the bottom looks more like a milk crate and there is no support whatsoever.....my 01 Accord was exactly the same way. My Z has better support (not a lot though), but the leaning of the car in the turns due to the weak sway bars defeats whatever support there is....I'm working on this though.
11-Refer back to #4. The roughness of this car really gets on my nerves. Every expantion joint feels as if you hit a wall or something. It sounds as if it's bottomed out, when it hasn't.
I would rate this car an 7.5, in a 1-10 scale. The lack of torque makes it hard to pass people and if you turn the AC on, then your 135hp engine just lost 35hp.....at least that's what it feels like. Once again, the ride is very rough, and in my opinion it kills the rating more than the power. Seats could be a tad better and so could some of the cabin accesories and plastics. Comparing this car directly to my 01 Accord, the latter has it beat, especially on the inside and ride quality. The Accord cost me $16,680, but it felt like like a $25k+ car. I think this is the feel TS is referring to.
I'm happy with the Corolla and overall is a keeper.
Rick
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