The Gulf oil spill

[Liquid_Turbo]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo


Oh well, we agree to disagree. BP has enough problems on their hand anyway.


My comment was not in conflict with anyone. It's an observation of human behavior. When something bad happens, someone has to be blamed and punished.

Let me give an example. A SEPTA train blew it on some signals which resulted in a crash. Many injuries and whatnot. The operator was found to have pot in his system. They never bothered with showing a link to the crash with usage. It was just that something bad happened and they could easily latch on to that low hanging fruit.

Cop responding to armed robbery call (lights flashing). Kid runs out in the road. Cop kills him . Dept finds one unrelated violation of policy in that event chain and fires him.

It's sorta along the lines of supervisors and service dept managers when something goes wrong.

"Did you do anything different this time?" Translated "Can I get you to, with your own words, give me something so that I can hang this around your neck?"

Whatever "it" is ..."THAT'S IT!!!".

There will be legions of investigators on this whole thing that will be actively seeking NOT the cause of this spill, but will be charged with accumulating as much evidence of things "unright" to stack on to whatever response CAN be leveraged against BP.



In that case, I agree with you. Whenever bad things happen where OTHER people's lives are affected, someone(s) has to be held accountable.. it's not necessarily a bad thing.

Usually the the cause of such an event is tied to someone's responsibility. This event didn't just happen on its own..

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah

Many more people killed this year from accidents from Coal than ever from a oil rig. And if you ask some "experts" more "damage" with electric power than anything oil.


More this year from coal than EVER from oil ?

Got some stats to back that up Bill ?


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-01-01-mine_x.htm

2006, coal mining deaths "spiked" to 47, nearly double 2005.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26645108/

2006, oil drilling deaths 127, and 120 by Sept 2007.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18437117

30.5 fatalities per 100,000 employees for oil drilling

http://www.reliableplant.com/Read/23922/Injuries-illnesses-coal-mining

24.8 fatalities per 100,000 employees for coal mining.

There's a slight disparity between those two links, one suggesting that the "all workers" rate is 4.0, while the latter suggesting 4.3 per 100,000 workers.

 

[suspiciousmind]

Research well done shannow!

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah

Many more people killed this year from accidents from Coal than ever from a oil rig. And if you ask some "experts" more "damage" with electric power than anything oil.


More this year from coal than EVER from oil ?

Got some stats to back that up Bill ?

BTW, I also believe that at the current point, electric cars and the hydrogen economy are wasteful boondoggles.


I did not mean ever for the stats. I meant this year on both since I typed it in there for one. (I was in a hurry, late for work)

No excuse but anytime you can dig on me why not!

Also since the subject is gulf oil spill, there are more accidents in coal mines over off shore drilling rigs in the recent past.

Of course, the media will never report that fact. The talking point has to be no more drilling off shore because this will happen over and over (even though its only happened once)

Its sad what has happened and BP should cover all of it till they are gone IMO. You play you pay if something happens.

But I'm sure there will be a bailout soon....

Bill

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo

The electric car is possible. We saw it with the Chevrolet EV1, but oil companies quietly pulled the plug on it.

but can not let this go..

So the oil companies stopped GM (who makes so much money that they don't need any more) to pull the "plug" (pun intended) on the wonderful electric car?

Oh wait! Maybe the oil companies paid off GM! (since they have so much money no one would notice all the extra $$ in their accounts)

Really think this?

How about the EV1 was going to LOOSE money on each unit and GM could not afford it.

Like Honda is loosing thousands on each of their Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle even after leasing them for "only" $600 a month.

 

[brandini]

I'd lose money NOW if I made a nuclear car, doesn't mean it'd never be successful...

An electric car doesn't have hydrogen storage problems and chargers don't have to run full tilt all the time. You'd lose money if you made a limited run of prototypes to beta test too on a technology that NOBODY ELSE USES.

 

[brandini]

A coal mine doesn't ruin thousands of miles of coastline and ecosystem. (excluding mountain-top removal of course)

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: brandini
A coal mine doesn't ruin thousands of miles of coastline and ecosystem. (excluding mountain-top removal of course)


But it does a lot worst according to certain people.

And GM did not shelf the ELECTRIC car due to oil companies. They did it because it can not work at this time. And there is not enough power to recharge the vehicles if we had them.

Bill

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo

The electric car is possible. We saw it with the Chevrolet EV1, but oil companies quietly pulled the plug on it.

but can not let this go..

So the oil companies stopped GM (who makes so much money that they don't need any more) to pull the "plug" (pun intended) on the wonderful electric car?

Oh wait! Maybe the oil companies paid off GM! (since they have so much money no one would notice all the extra $$ in their accounts)

Really think this?

How about the EV1 was going to LOOSE money on each unit and GM could not afford it.

Like Honda is loosing thousands on each of their Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle even after leasing them for "only" $600 a month.


I'm not normally a conspiracy guy but the EV1 story does make me think abit... I think the guys that are very wealthy in our oil based, disposable car, hyper consumer society, didn't like the type of economy where electric cars could potentially lead us. The potential for personal energy independence using solar and wind power, the potential for nuclear power to replace gasoline sales, the potential for extemely longlasting simple drivetrains and vehicles that may last decades... Also the zero emmisions vehicle requirement disappeared at a convienient time. Yes, the EV1 wasn't going to be profitable soon or change the world but it was a good start towards practical electric cars for many people in urban areas.
Internal combustion and liquid fuels will always have a place where its the best solution, but its not the only solution for efficient transportation forever and ever... I did some rough calcs last night and with solar panels down to $1k per KW(and warrantied for 25years at 80%), building an array and battery system to charge something like an Aptera starts approach the cost of driving a new midsize car if you keep the Aptera long enough...

Obviously reducing fossil fuel consumption will reduce the need to go find fossil fuels in extremely difficult situations. All I hear in the attempts to plug the oil well is that this or that technique has never been done at this depth before. Maybe they should have been sure they could plug a well at this depth before drilling?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
And GM did not shelf the ELECTRIC car due to oil companies. They did it because it can not work at this time. And there is not enough power to recharge the vehicles if we had them.


Yeah. That's why we're told that no one wants diesels in the US. It has nothing to do with economic consumption models and the fact that diesels, if allowed to, can get 35% better fuel economy and last longer than other power plants.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
All I hear in the attempts to plug the oil well is that this or that technique has never been done at this depth before. Maybe they should have been sure they could plug a well at this depth before drilling?


EXCELLENT POINT!

That and also all oil rigs NEED to make sure that they have the latest and greatest devices that can prevent this from ever happening.

The reason why they had to go so deep is because of no one wants to see a oil rig off their coast where the depth would have been less.

But I agree totally. ONCE we have more wells drilled with the latest equipment in operation, they should shutdown the existing ones and retrofit with latest equipment just in case.

Remember this is the only (and I'm NOT discounting the impact) oil rig that has done this. We do not need to shut them all down right now as some folks are calling for.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
And GM did not shelf the ELECTRIC car due to oil companies. They did it because it can not work at this time. And there is not enough power to recharge the vehicles if we had them.


Yeah. That's why we're told that no one wants diesels in the US. It has nothing to do with economic consumption models and the fact that diesels, if allowed to, can get 35% better fuel economy and last longer than other power plants.




The REASON for diesels is not private. Its the EPA and their stupid rules that make them more expensive and in some cases too difficult to bring over to the US.

Trust me, make a 45-50 MPG Outback (already been made for other countries) and there would be a line around the block for it.

But it can not be made and pass here. Same with the 40+MPG accord.

I'd buy 2 Toyota Diesel Station Wagons tomorrow cash if they were available and did not have the 2010 EPA junk on them.

They are available in other countries right now!

Bill

 

[Liquid_Turbo]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo

The electric car is possible. We saw it with the Chevrolet EV1, but oil companies quietly pulled the plug on it.

but can not let this go..

So the oil companies stopped GM (who makes so much money that they don't need any more) to pull the "plug" (pun intended) on the wonderful electric car?

Oh wait! Maybe the oil companies paid off GM! (since they have so much money no one would notice all the extra $$ in their accounts)

Really think this?

How about the EV1 was going to LOOSE money on each unit and GM could not afford it.

Like Honda is loosing thousands on each of their Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle even after leasing them for "only" $600 a month.



This is offtopic but it's good discussion. Perhaps we should start a new thread?

You can do it right or do it wrong. GM was losing huge money on Hummers, a gasoline car.

EV1 came in when it cost 25% to fill a gas tank compared to now. An electric car/electric infrastructure is not an impossibility. Let's not confuse Fuel Cell technology with Electric cars technology. (I believe Fuel Cell cars will almost never be feasible, economically, until cheap hydrogen production is possible..) Cheap electricity is already here. And we know exactly how to produce more electricity.


Back on topic:

When you're doing this kind of drilling at the very limits of what is technologically possible, it's mindblowing that more failsafes were not considered. Surely this scenario must have been contemplated on the design of the drilling rig?

Yea, I know, hindsight is 20/20

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah

Also since the subject is gulf oil spill, there are more accidents in coal mines over off shore drilling rigs in the recent past.

Of course, the media will never report that fact. The talking point has to be no more drilling off shore because this will happen over and over (even though its only happened once)

Its sad what has happened and BP should cover all of it till they are gone IMO. You play you pay if something happens.

But I'm sure there will be a bailout soon....

Bill


Bill, Shannow found proof but you didn't, so why are you still insist that you are right and the "media" is biased? That's not really a convincing argument.

 

[theophile]

BP did have very common technology deployed to isolate formation pressure in the event of a blowout. While the blowout may have been caused by prematurely circulating out the mud from the marine riser resulting in casing cement failure , the BOP failed to close off the flow of NGL's and oil from the wellhead. And, apparently the shear rams failed to pinch the pipe as well. The technology is there. Has been for years. And I assure you, a company doesn't spend $211 million to drill a well (What BP spent before the blowout) without knowingly having non-functioning BOP's and shear rams. Hopefully, an investigation will flesh out the truth. I'm wondering if they tried to leave the well location without running a cement bond log to verify integrity. What no one fails to talk about was whether or not proper fire fighting techniques were used to prevent the collapse of the rig's substructure. Had it's integrity been maintained, then most of the product would be burning. And better options would be available to kill the well.

 

[PandaBear]

I was working in a university project for GM back in the late 90s to convert an EV1 to hybrid (and we did). The problem of EV1 isn't oil company killing it, but the battery and electronics technologies weren't ready yet.

The battery when we took it out was humongous. It is a T shape, 1200lb piece that is LEAD ACID. You are not going to be able to build it well and sell it well in this car for only 100 or so miles of range. If you put the same chasis with a 1L 3 cylinder K car engine, you can probably get 70 mpg.

Why wouldn't people buy a fiber glass car with 1L engine that weight 1800lb? Because they don't want to. So why would people buy the same thing with only 100 mile range and a huge premium (i.e. 30k in 1998 money)? Look at Tesla, they are finally able to build it when technology is ready, but that's 10 years later.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah

Also since the subject is gulf oil spill, there are more accidents in coal mines over off shore drilling rigs in the recent past.

Of course, the media will never report that fact. The talking point has to be no more drilling off shore because this will happen over and over (even though its only happened once)

Its sad what has happened and BP should cover all of it till they are gone IMO. You play you pay if something happens.

But I'm sure there will be a bailout soon....

Bill


Bill, Shannow found proof but you didn't, so why are you still insist that you are right and the "media" is biased? That's not really a convincing argument.


His proof ended in 2007. I said recent past in the last post. My original post I've said I meant in the past year on both. I made a error on NEVER on one of them.

I said that too. Too bad I'm not perfect like others here.

 

[Shannow]

LOL Bill, so you obviously know the figures for May 20th 2010...please share.

Why isn't 2007, and the rest of this decade recent enough for a statement that YOU brought into this thread.

Mate, all over this board, YOU are demanding people to provide PROOF of THEIR quips, one liners, and statements, to the point of PLEASE put "II", or "Jr" after a name for correctness, but maintain your own right to make broad statements that are to remain unchallengeable .

and your statement was more from coal THIS year than EVER from oil rigs...go read it.

 

[Panzerman]

When you say Cheap electricity is already here, I hope you are not referring to those Joke, feel good wind mills and solar power. There is plenty of oil, we just need for everybody to get out of the way and let them go get it. That means Alaska, that they seem to want to turn over to wildlife as a conservatory, the oil fields in the west and the oil off the shelf. Seriously, People whine about seeing a oil rig off the coast, well I whine about $5 a gallon gas.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
The problem of EV1 isn't oil company killing it, but the battery and electronics technologies weren't ready yet.



Thank You!

Conspiracies revolving around the EV1 and some sinister plot on GM's part, is no different than watching a MM movie and claiming Cuba has superior "quality" health care to the US.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah



The REASON for diesels is not private. Its the EPA and their stupid rules that make them more expensive and in some cases too difficult to bring over to the US.



Exactly.

I'll never understand how GM or Ford could be party to a "plot" to keep Diesels out of the US market. They have built/sold them for years in other markets.