The great China Hack - Epic infiltration

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An interesting response; one that Saul Goodman would be proud of. Don't bother to think about the question asked & what it means. Just blithely bat it away & offer up your own knee jerk reaction on what's wrong with everything & everybody else. A digression. In the '70s & '80s, the IRA were supported by American money (not officially but it came regardless). They were seen as 'freedom fighters' against 'British oppression'. That in reality, they were a bunch of bigoted, murderous psychopaths, didn't seem to bother you that much. Until 9/11 that is and suddenly it's 24/7 'war on terror' in all it's forms. The point I'm making is that The US, for all of it's technological & economic prowess, has form when it comes to not seeing stuff that's happening right under it's nose. Yet the signs are all there! The marked, and publicly supported lurch to the ideological right. The tolerance of extremes (shootings, drug deaths, police violence, incarceration of huge numbers of people). The subversion of truth. The palpable sense of aggrievement & a willingness to over-assertively bully in response. And it's not showing any signs of stopping is it? If you declared war on Iran or NK tomorrow, would anyone be surprised? I wonder where this will all ultimately lead & my fear is The Next Big One, won't be China vs Japan or Saudi Arabia vs Iran but The US vs The Rest Of The World... ...and that might affect us all 'personally'.
 
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Originally Posted by Nickdfresh
BTW, I'm all up for arming Taiwan to the teeth! You wanna p-off the 'Red' Chinese? Sell Taiwan modern diesel attack subs!
Not sure who this is directed to, but its my understanding that the US (Taiwan's main, and currently I think only) arms supplier, does not have any modern diesel attack submarines. Its an all-nuclear-powered force. We (the UK) used to have some, and could have disposed of them to Taiwan when they were decommissioned, but we're too scared of the PRC, as is everyone else, though France (perhaps the only government with a court conviction for state-sponsored terrorism?) has supplied Mirage jets in the past.
 
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Posts like these remind me of why you are "Son" of Joe.
Originally Posted by SonofJoe
Some of us are less concerned about the Chinese Evil Empire and more concerned about The US being the crucible for an emerging Fourth Reich! And that really is scary...
 
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History suggests that 'arming yourself to the teeth and p'ing people off' isn't necessarily the best long-term survival strategy. In the run up to WWI, The Kaiser spent massively on armaments, including trying to match The Royal Navy. By 1918, Germany was a ravaged, bankrupt & starving country. In the run up to WWII, Germany, unable to learn from the past, repeated the same mistake. By 1945, once again, it was bankrupt but this time, the entire country was a bombed out ruin. Had it not been for Lincolnshire potatoes and Welsh coal, millions would have starved & frozen to death. All arming yourself to the teeth does is make your closest neighbours & your neighbour's neighbours extremely nervous & ready to band together. I think China has worked this out for itself which is why they were happy to wait for Hong Kong & will wait for Taiwan, rather than fight a war take it by force.
 
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Originally Posted by kschachn
Posts like these remind me of why you are "Son" of Joe.
Originally Posted by SonofJoe
Some of us are less concerned about the Chinese Evil Empire and more concerned about The US being the crucible for an emerging Fourth Reich! And that really is scary...
I'm sure you're trying to imply something here (possibly not complementary) but I'm just not getting it. I have read it several times. Sorry.
 
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Originally Posted by SonofJoe
Originally Posted by kschachn
Posts like these remind me of why you are "Son" of Joe.
Originally Posted by SonofJoe
Some of us are less concerned about the Chinese Evil Empire and more concerned about The US being the crucible for an emerging Fourth Reich! And that really is scary...
I'm sure you're trying to imply something here (possibly not complementary) but I'm just not getting it. I have read it several times. Sorry.
My best guess was a reference to Uncle Joe Stalin, but doesn't really fit the "Son" emphasis. SOB? Surely not. That'd be quite rude.
 
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Originally Posted by SonofJoe
History suggests that 'arming yourself to the teeth and p'ing people off' isn't necessarily the best long-term survival strategy. In the run up to WWI, The Kaiser spent massively on armaments, including trying to match The Royal Navy. By 1918, Germany was a ravaged, bankrupt & starving country. In the run up to WWII, Germany, unable to learn from the past, repeated the same mistake. By 1945, once again, it was bankrupt but this time, the entire country was a bombed out ruin. Had it not been for Lincolnshire potatoes and Welsh coal, millions would have starved & frozen to death. All arming yourself to the teeth does is make your closest neighbours & your neighbour's neighbours extremely nervous & ready to band together. I think China has worked this out for itself which is why they were happy to wait for Hong Kong & will wait for Taiwan, rather than fight a war take it by force.
In general, OK, but I can't see a few subs for Taiwan (which was the context) frightening the PLA very much, though it might irritate them. Even an "armed to the teeth" Taiwan is at best a potential defensive opponent, and that's assuming they'd fight.
 

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In 1916 the Sun was never setting down over British Empire. One generation later they were standing with their hands out. A few generations later they keep telling the fable of saving the West with their Vulcans, while getting their ration cards in order. A lesson for all of us.
 
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Originally Posted by SonofJoe
An interesting response; one that Saul Goodman would be proud of. Don't bother to think about the question asked & what it means. Just blithely bat it away & offer up your own knee jerk reaction on what's wrong with everything & everybody else.
Oh Hi sonofjoe! smile Omg, I'm blushing! Did you really compare me to Slip and Fall Jimmy? I mean, you kind [censored]! Thank you so much!
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A digression. In the '70s & '80s, the IRA were supported by American money (not officially but it came regardless). They were seen as 'freedom fighters' against 'British oppression'. That in reality, they were a bunch of bigoted, murderous psychopaths, didn't seem to bother you that much. Until 9/11 that is and suddenly it's 24/7 'war on terror' in all it's forms.
Oh, old Joe, I'm a bit sauced right now, so i'll be back tomorrow to offer a point-by-point talk. But the IRA thing? Really, blaming that on America? Maybe the IRA was a [censored] in 1969, but spectacular British and Northern Irish incompetence is far more pertinent to its resurgence than any American money or Armalites? After-all, you're a (presumably) British Conservative. Maybe one of your precepts should be to take responsibility for your failures. Like letting Protestant Death Squads run rampant? i think they were meat-clevering the "thick paddy Catholics" in the 1960's? No? .... We'll talk tomorrow my son of Joe... smile BTW, what in Jimmie Cricket does this have to do with China?
 
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Originally Posted by Ducked
Originally Posted by Nickdfresh
BTW, I'm all up for arming Taiwan to the teeth! You wanna p-off the 'Red' Chinese? Sell Taiwan modern diesel attack subs!
Not sure who this is directed to, but its my understanding that the US (Taiwan's main, and currently I think only) arms supplier, does not have any modern diesel attack submarines. Its an all-nuclear-powered force. ...t.
It certainly wasn't directed at you . The Taiwanese currently operated 1950's vintage subs, like two AFIAK. China has blocked any western nation from offering them an upgrade...
 
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Originally Posted by Ducked
Originally Posted by SonofJoe
History suggests that 'arming yourself to the teeth and p'ing people off' isn't necessarily the best long-term survival strategy. In the run up to WWI, The Kaiser spent massively on armaments, including trying to match The Royal Navy. By 1918, Germany was a ravaged, bankrupt & starving country. In the run up to WWII, Germany, unable to learn from the past, repeated the same mistake. By 1945, once again, it was bankrupt but this time, the entire country was a bombed out ruin. Had it not been for Lincolnshire potatoes and Welsh coal, millions would have starved & frozen to death. All arming yourself to the teeth does is make your closest neighbours & your neighbour's neighbours extremely nervous & ready to band together. I think China has worked this out for itself which is why they were happy to wait for Hong Kong & will wait for Taiwan, rather than fight a war take it by force.
In general, OK, but I can't see a few subs for Taiwan (which was the context) frightening the PLA very much, though it might irritate them. Even an "armed to the teeth" Taiwan is at best a potential defensive opponent, and that's assuming they'd fight.
It's called 'area denial'. A few high tech subs in Taiwanese hands would effectively preclude a Chinese PLA amphibious attack for a decade at least..
 

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Well now, this has gone off the rails, but can't say I'm opposed to watching where this goes. Carry on lads!
 
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BTW, Sonofjoe, I guess you have a friend here in that they deleted your idiotic comment calling the US "The Fourth Reich"/. Good on you! smile
 

OVERKILL

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Originally Posted by SonofJoe
The point I'm making is that The US, for all of it's technological & economic prowess, has form when it comes to not seeing stuff that's happening right under it's nose. Yet the signs are all there! The marked, and publicly supported lurch to the ideological right. The tolerance of extremes (shootings, drug deaths, police violence, incarceration of huge numbers of people). The subversion of truth. The palpable sense of aggrievement & a willingness to over-assertively bully in response. And it's not showing any signs of stopping is it? If you declared war on Iran or NK tomorrow, would anyone be surprised
This coming from the same folk that apparently couldn't see WWII coming as it was staring them in face shrug "Oh no, the Germans couldn't POSSIBLY be rearming, not after the generous slap on the bollocks we gave them after Wilhelm's gaffes, har har har, pass the tea and crumpets dear girl". Yes, getting bombed by the Nazi's, Hood sent to the bottom of the Atlantic by a single salvo from Bismarck, the Canadians coming in to help you build planes (Beaverbrook) and eventually the Americans getting dragged into it because of Pearl Harbour, but you blokes didn't stand a snowball's chance in [censored] without them and I'm still amazed to see the flippant response to the folks that saved your arrogant behinds as you were being bombed into oblivion by the same group that you put in the position for that to take place, yet were too clueless to see it happening. Aye, the mighty empire indeed. Usurped by a former colony, yet still arrogant enough to try and beat them down over politics and policy when your lot couldn't secure a picnic.
 
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Originally Posted by Nickdfresh
Originally Posted by Ducked
Originally Posted by SonofJoe
History suggests that 'arming yourself to the teeth and p'ing people off' isn't necessarily the best long-term survival strategy. In the run up to WWI, The Kaiser spent massively on armaments, including trying to match The Royal Navy. By 1918, Germany was a ravaged, bankrupt & starving country. In the run up to WWII, Germany, unable to learn from the past, repeated the same mistake. By 1945, once again, it was bankrupt but this time, the entire country was a bombed out ruin. Had it not been for Lincolnshire potatoes and Welsh coal, millions would have starved & frozen to death. All arming yourself to the teeth does is make your closest neighbours & your neighbour's neighbours extremely nervous & ready to band together. I think China has worked this out for itself which is why they were happy to wait for Hong Kong & will wait for Taiwan, rather than fight a war take it by force.
In general, OK, but I can't see a few subs for Taiwan (which was the context) frightening the PLA very much, though it might irritate them. Even an "armed to the teeth" Taiwan is at best a potential defensive opponent, and that's assuming they'd fight.
It's called 'area denial'. A few high tech subs in Taiwanese hands would effectively preclude a Chinese PLA amphibious attack for a decade at least..
"Area denial" is probably Pentagon-speak for defense. Which is what I called it. Your particular jargon doesn't appear to add any further meaning. Tactically, I dunno, but I doubt its so clear cut. (I used to have a bathtub model USS Nautilus, worked with baking soda, came out of a Cornflake packet, but my experience of submarine warfare is limited). I suspect the Taiwan Straits would be difficult to operate subs in. Quite constrained, big tidal currents, sandbanks. U-boats weren't very effective against the Normandy landings.
 
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It's a beautiful, still, sunny Autumnal Sunday morning here in Hampshire and wifey has informed wants 'to do something' (as yet unspecified but I'm sure I'll be told once she's decided). As a consequence, I'm going to have to leave you to argue amongst yourselves today. Unfortunately this will mean that one of you will have to express a contradictory opinion; a concept alien to most Americans (I blame all that 'group activity' they make you all do at school!) Anyway, here's some instructions on how to get things started.. https://youtu.be/uLlv_aZjHXc Did they really zap my Fourth Reich comment? Ouch!
 
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
......I'm still amazed to see the flippant response to the folks that saved your arrogant behinds as you were being bombed into oblivion by the same group that you put in the position for that to take place, yet were too clueless to see it happening.
bombed into oblivion? Battle of Britain was 1940. Britain won. Mostly a British "show" (one of the reasons they call it the Battle of Britain) though there were roughly 20% foreign pilots (including a handful of Americans). Biggest foreign contingents were the Poles and the Czechs, who got their own squadrons. Britain did get its "arrogant behinds" saved by a foreign power later, but if there was a flippant response above to the Soviet Union's contribution to the defeat of fascism, I must have missed it.
 
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Well that's a bit of a bad show! You give The Yanks an open goal to shoot at for a few hours and what do they do? Nothing! Okay, should anyone be interested in continuing, here are a couple of aviation themed responses... To Ducked... 'Winning' The Battle Of Britian' is one of the defining moments of our national story. However it might be more honest to say it was a draw. Why? Well Eric 'Winkle' Brown, a hugely decorated Naval test pilot & fluent German speaker interviewed a lot of their top brass before the Nuremberg Trials. When he interviewed Hermann Goering, he asked his views of TBOB and Goering said, based on each other's losses, he thought it was a draw. Eric Brown went away and checked out what Goering said & concluded that he was right. The primary reason we 'won' was Hitler gave up on invading The UK and pulled The Luftwaffe eastwards to support the invasion of The USSR. Somewhere on YouTube, there's a video of Brown telling the story in full. I can't find it but did find the essence of the story here... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-Biggles-look-like-wimp-tells-story.html To Y_K, Don't knock the Avro Vulcan! It maybe a museum piece now but back in the day it was something quite spesh. It's shape gave it a low radar signature & pilots said it handled like a fighter more than a bomber. Also it was extremely good at bombing America! This was demonstrated in the various incarnations of Operation Skyshield in the early '60s which were designed to test The US's air defences against a (simulated) Soviet attack. There's a story lurking somewhere on the internet about a single RAF Vulcan squeaking through a tiny gap in the defences, flying right up Pennsylvania Avenue and dropping a box of Harrods biscuits on The White House! Is it true? Who knows? But I reckon it could be!.
 
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