That's called nebulous double talk. Another example of exactly what I was referring to. Another "open to interpretation" meaningless claim that cannot be effectively defined, gauged or evaluated on its merits.
The EV battery discussion thread (bogus breakthroughs)
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That's called nebulous double talk. Another example of exactly what I was referring to. Another "open to interpretation" meaningless claim that cannot be effectively defined, gauged or evaluated on its merits.
Most pickups carry nothing but air in the bed and on the hitch a very large % of the time.
A quick scan of my sig lines vehicle gives away Im a fan of the dino juice.
Im also highly opposed to " force it" legislation that exists to tax choices out of being viable.
That's a meaningless observation right up there with 3 blind men describing the elephant.
I would agree in the cases of LEGITIMATE beneficial scientific research ( remember those subsidies are given from and added to EVERYONES taxes)- the problem is these subsidies and incentives are weaponized and used for political goals- not legitimate science.
It's only double talk if you choose to use it that way.
No, that's defensive posturing by fan boys and Kool Aid drinkers who don't want to acknowledge the facts because of their cognitive dissonance conflicts with their desired world view.
Here's a way to prove it.
Give us a legitimate example of this repurposing in terms of what it could be used for, the cost and effect. ( not just a vague claim)
Just one will do.
I'm quite not convinced those people are such a "rare breed" as you might expect. Non automotive enthusiasts flocked to Honda cars in the late 1970's and 1980's due to the abysmal quality of domestic cars. Suzie homemaker told her neighbor Katie soccermom how wonderful the little Honda was, without being an educated "car nut". She simply liked the Honda due to the superb driving dynamics, reliability and fuel economy, and was clearly smart enough to recognize a great product.
Put another way, when a better product arrived, it was widely embraced.
I'd be thrilled to try, if I understood your request....
Here it is, straight from Jeff's post I was quoting and referencing. I cant understand what the guy making the claim was saying either. ( which is what I was pointing out). I just asked for an example of what these "potential" "Uses" are. Not sure what "stuff" is.
you’d potentially be able to use the battery multiple times, either in vehicular energy storage or grid-connected stuff.”
But at what cost? Still a bit of apples to oranges comparisons as late 1930s aircraft engines did not need to meet 21st century emissions requirements.
I don't think we can run as lean as you could get away with 80 to 90 years ago given the other environmental constraints.
But I will note that such efficiency using the technology of that era is impressive.
I swear if the people on this board ran the world we’d still have leaded gas and manual chokes.
Actually I take that back. We’d still be riding in horse drawn carriages.
Actually I take that back. We’d still be riding in horse drawn carriages.
What makes you come to that conclusion?
Those who advocate new technologies and carrying them to their maximum potential?
or
Those who insist on keeping those above honest while they are doing it?
Most people are opposed to charging different cars that all just run on gas different amounts based on their drivetrain but that is exactly what is being pushed as the savior to ma roads.
And it appears no one is doing anything to oppose these even though they violate equal protection laws already on the books.
We could probably run leaner than they did then (see 2006 insight )
Simple (late) water injection or a water wash of exhaust allows you to run as clean and lean as you want, my fathers 70’s era diesel mine equipment ran its exhaust through a 55 gallon drum of lake water that had to be dumped and changed.
The mine only allowed diesels with a water wash because the exhaust after cleaning was harmless and free of monoxide or any other contamination that could not be cleaned from gasoline engines
Sadly a water wash is illegal because it’s assumed to be “too hard” of daily maintenance and due to freezing weather.
Oddly some recent tech heads are collecting exhaust water to do exactly what my fathers 100ton rig did, needless to say that’s a $100 solution to a 10 cent problem
Agreed, current schemes only give you back taxes you already paid in, the poor generally can’t take advantage of the tax break and it’s not like 50% of the market is electric. (Maybe 1% in ideal cases)
Having BEVs in the real world has had many unexpected side effects like being a boon to off grid solar systems and a source of batteries for antique plug ins and conversions of various types.
What I rather see instead of subsides would be lower taxes (instead of the $665 extra I would have to pay 1st year title + registration for an old $2000 plug in)
Unless the excessive taxes are fixed BEV is a non-starter since the tax is more expensive than the gas I burn
And all the folks complaining about the subsides NEVER MENTION the excessive registration taxes that kill the used market for plug ins or even plain Jane start stop cars.
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gathermewool
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Wouldn’t one use be the recycling/re-use of good cells in an otherwise degraded pack? Whether this be for a refurb vehicle battery pack for renewal or a repurposing for something like a cheap in-home battery pack for solar off-hours? Even cheaper might be to ensure that future battery tech incorporate the ability to not only easily swap the battery pack, but to use that pack, as-is, for some other purpose, in its degraded, but still functional state.
In the end, are we talking about what’s happening or what could be possible and seems, at least to me, to be quite feasible on the local, if not commercial, scale?
I may be projecting, but it seems as if you’re going on the offense and being a bit pushy. Not everyone is an expert in any of the adjoining fields of study, but that doesn’t mean we can’t take part in the conversation.
As a tax-payer I’m currently fine with subsidizing the purchase (not by me, yet) of PHEV, BEV’s and other renewables to get the tech out in the real world, accruing empirical data. As much as I would like for 100% of my tax dollars to go to legitimate research in this field, I don’t think that’s a realistic expectation.
I don't own an electric vehicle so I don't have any skin in this game (any more than we all do given the realities of climate change and of the increasing legislation aimed at reducing fossil fuel use) but the technology interests me so I've been "doing my own research" (by which I mean, of course, watching YouTube videos on the subject).
A couple of points
I can say, having watched a few videos of electric motorbikes, while the performance is interesting, the sound is awful. There's definitely something missing when all you hear is the whine of an electric motor and some weird drivetrain noises that are normally masked by the sound on an engine and sound like something's broken. At least give me some sort of sci-fi turbine spooling-up sound! For cars, especially for the everyday luxury-type vehicle the public wants, the lack of sound is a plus but for a performance vehicle or motorbike, I'm not sold.
That said, a couple of points:
- Battery price: I believe the high quoted price of replacement battery packs is to make a profit off those wishing to buy the packs for stationary use or those wishing to use them in their own EV conversions. They're generally less expensive when installed in a vehicle by a dealer and the used pack should have a good resale value too, though whether this is passed on to the consumer or pocketed as profit is another matter.
- Charging time: For everyday use, this isn't really an issue given that the average commute, plus a few errands here and there, won't come close to the range of the vehicle and it can be charged overnight at home. This does cause issues for those that don't have access to at-home charging (apartment buildings, etc.) but, as charging stations become more common I think most people will be able to keep their vehicle with enough of a charge for daily use by plugging it in when they go grocery shopping and run other errands once or twice a week. For long trips, the best-practice seems to be to start with a fully charged battery then plan more frequent, shorter, charging stops taking advantage of the faster charge rate of these batteries up to 70-75% capacity (at which point the charge rate slows down). So, instead of an hour-plus stop for a full charge in the middle of a drive a couple of 15-20 min stops to charge to 70% (and stop for a coffee or lunch) makes for a faster trip. Obviously more planning is going to be required than with a fossil fuel powered vehicle though I'm sure there'll be an app for that.
A couple of points
I don't own an electric vehicle so I don't have any skin in this game (any more than we all do given the realities of climate change and of the increasing legislation aimed at reducing fossil fuel use) but the technology interests me so I've been "doing my own research" (by which I mean, of course, watching YouTube videos on the subject).
I can say, having watched a few videos of electric motorbikes, while the performance is interesting, the sound is awful. There's definitely something missing when all you hear is the whine of an electric motor and some weird drivetrain noises that are normally masked by the sound on an engine and sound like something's broken. At least give me some sort of sci-fi turbine spooling-up sound! For cars, especially for the everyday luxury-type vehicle the public wants, the lack of sound is a plus but for a performance vehicle or motorbike, I'm not sold.
That said, a couple of points:
- Battery price: I believe the high quoted price of replacement battery packs is to make a profit off those wishing to buy the packs for stationary use or those wishing to use them in their own EV conversions. They're generally less expensive when installed in a vehicle by a dealer and the used pack should have a good resale value too, though whether this is passed on to the consumer or pocketed as profit is another matter.
- Charging time: For everyday use, this isn't really an issue given that the average commute, plus a few errands here and there, won't come close to the range of the vehicle and it can be charged overnight at home. This does cause issues for those that don't have access to at-home charging (apartment buildings, etc.) but, as charging stations become more common I think most people will be able to keep their vehicle with enough of a charge for daily use by plugging it in when they go grocery shopping and run other errands once or twice a week. For long trips, the best-practice seems to be to start with a fully charged battery then plan more frequent, shorter, charging stops taking advantage of the faster charge rate of these batteries up to 70-75% capacity (at which point the charge rate slows down). So, instead of an hour-plus stop for a full charge in the middle of a drive a couple of 15-20 min stops to charge to 70% (and stop for a coffee or lunch) makes for a faster trip. Obviously more planning is going to be required than with a fossil fuel powered vehicle though I'm sure there'll be an app for that.
And that's my point. At what cost for further solutions.
I don't think anyone who is rational is against cost effective solutions. While I have a certain nostalgia for my '66 Nova, I don't think I'd want to own one today.
Yet it seems we have a world full of $100 solutions to $0.10 problems. That's my point and that's the source of push back from many folks.
No one in their right mind would be against cost effective clean, efficient transportation.
Here's the real world problem with that. Cells don't degrade equally and degradation take on many different physical forms which are not compatible with other forms.
The effort and random chance of mating them together in a viable with a significant performance capacity is very slim and labor intensive and no way to assure an outcome.
That question is as long as it is wide- if it wont hold a charge or a load- its functionally useless unless one wants a refurbished $20,000 battery to run a flashlight for 30 minutes.
Not at all. All I am doing is stating empirical scientific fact and challenging false claims with it to keep them honest. The ones who feel that is "pushy' or get upset with legitimate challenges to bogus information should alarm everyone. I have not pushed any point or personally degraded anyone.
That being said, I'm not going to let false or misleading information pass along unchallenged either.
I might suggest you also put that level of observation to the people making those claims who balk at answering those challenges too.
Let me point out one very important selective omission those parroting these things deliberately steer clear of. Infrastructure support.
As the "number' of these cars needing charge increases- so will power requirements and peak loads.
This will require significant additions to power generation capability and capacity as well as transmission and retention in the HUNDREDS of billions of dollars nationwide. Energy for these 'charges" aint fee and has to be generated and carried to the car.
That's not in the price of the car but in the price of OWNING the car and somebody has to pay for all that too. ( in addition to the minerals required for all these)
Theres the economic impact of scale that all those "benefits" have to be weighed against to determine the true cost and value.
Junk batteries are a huge market, nearly 100% of the batteries go out to hobbiests
People fight over plug in batteries and entire business ventures are founded are cornering these markets
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The problem right now is that the law is getting stupid (and has been for a long time)
Step 1 ban grey market laws, you should be allowed to import any vehicle from any 1st world country
Step 2 do not push the costs of poor business decisions onto consumers via fixed taxation.
Business should pay for its practices and bear the cost of its infrastructure so it can attempt to minimize the cost instead of being subsidized . A good example is that even though trains have lower infrastructure, labor and fuel costs (about 75% less) they cost more for freight due to government subsiding other forms of freight.
Step 3 do not favoritely tax certain privately owned property while overtaxing other private property due to issues in step 2 above
Step 4 Pollution should be volumetrically measured per mile, if a small car can get better economy by having dirtier exhaust but still makes less pollution than a “clean pickup” F off and don’t worry about it. We are slicing hairs over unimportant differences.
Step 5 - get rid of platform laws, if a car is made with a different transmission or engine don’t force the manufacturer to crash test each one for $15 million a pop, test one version and be done with it.
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The car as a whole house backup is being intentionally stymied by electric car companies themselves so far Tesla included.
They'd rather sell you another battery. Elon didnt talk about possible bidirectional hardware being built in.
The concept of your vehicle as a generator is always interesting guys are talking about using the new F150 onboard to back up your house so it could happen with ICE before BEV.
Now - the pros and cons to this are vast and a separate but also lively discussion.
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